How Dressing Well Boosts Your Confidence and Leadership Perception

Tim Newman [00:00:00]:
If I took two equally qualified people and changed nothing except about how they showed up visually, how different would their outcomes be? Welcome back to Speaking with Confidence, the podcast that helps you build the soft skills that lead to real results. Communication, storytelling, public speaking, and showing up with confidence in every conversation that counts. I'm Tim Newman, a recovering college professor turned communication coach, and I'm thrilled to guide you on your journey to becoming a powerful communicator. Today's guests are Caden Broussard and Jenny Chen. Jenny and Caden are the co founders of Cello, one of the largest styling companies with a focus on professionals and life transition, especially men. Jello stylists work with professionals to dress with confidence and executive presence. Jenny and Kaden are on to discuss the importance of dressing when it comes to feeling confident, and share some tactical tips around dressing to improve your leadership perception.

Tim Newman [00:01:09]:
Kate and Jenny, welcome to Speaking with Confidence.

Caden Broussard [00:01:12]:
Oh, nice to talk to you, Tim.

Tim Newman [00:01:13]:
So, as you all started cello, because I think this is a phenomenal idea, especially for, you know, for guys especially like me, who have, number one, who. Who have no fashion sense, two, who, when I go to the store, I'm not really not allowed to go buy clothes anymore, but when I go, I'm buying the same things, the same colors, the same styles over and over again because it's.

Jinny Chen [00:01:37]:
It's.

Tim Newman [00:01:37]:
It's comfortable for me because I know that this will match with that. So what was the moment you realized this wasn't a fashion problem for you all, but it was more of a confidence problem?

Caden Broussard [00:01:48]:
Yeah, I can start. And it's like, great talking with you, Tim. This is actually one of the first things that Jenny and I bonded over when we met. So we met as roommates in grad school, and I think, like, simultaneously, you know, we had felt like we worked really hard. You both have been working corporate jobs that we were really proud of, but we had both kind of noticed that, like, even when you, like, work, work hard, and end up in these, like, you know, rooms where you're, you know, finding career success, one thing that really can make you feel out of place or less confident is if you show up and you feel like you're really not dressed for the part, like, it could be dressing too junior. It could be, like dressing in a way that actually isn't appropriate to, like, the setting that you're in. So it was something that we had realized in our own personal lives and had felt like, you know, it's not something that anybody really teaches you, especially if you're a man, like, it's something that you actually have to figure out on your own, but does, like, really impact how you feel and how you're able to show up in a room. So it was something that we had noticed in our personal lives.

Caden Broussard [00:02:51]:
And then when we started cello as our talking to our customers again, especially men, that was actually a theme that came up again and again of a lot of the reasons people came to us were actually not just that they wanted to look better, but it was like, I just got a new job that I'm really excited about. I. I just got promoted. I just, you know, moved to a new city. And actually, when you make a big transition, one of the first things you're thinking about is, okay, am I actually showing up in the way I want to and dressing the right way for that transition. So it was a theme that had come up with our customers and then also just in our. Our personal lives that made us feel like, you know, dressing well is more than just about fashion. It's actually about, you know, how you feel about yourself and how you're able to show up professionally and personally.

Jinny Chen [00:03:36]:
Yeah. And Tim, you give yourself, or I don't think you give yourself enough credit. Like, generally, people kind of know, like, I'm comfortable with this. I feel good in this. So they reach for the same thing over and over again. Like a lot of psychology around, you know, if you feel comfortable, if you feel great, like, that's. It impacts on how you actually show up. And there's been, like, studies on this too.

Jinny Chen [00:04:00]:
And it's like there's like the doctor lab coat one, or it impacts, like, people's actual performance. And so, like, I think generally people have good instincts of like, hey, like, I felt great in this, so I'm gonna keep reach for this again and again. And to Kaden's point, it's like sometimes it's like, it's that moment of transition. It's like, okay, like, I've reached for this before. I'm now in a new life phase where perhaps when I'm reaching for this, like, I haven't found what makes me feel good and confident in this, like, new state that I'm in.

Tim Newman [00:04:29]:
Yeah, that's. That's. That's really a good point. And as I, As I think about what you all are saying here, I go back to when I was a kid, you know, and. And playing sports. My dad would. My dad would always say, you know, if. If you look good, you're going to play good, you know, if you're in the right Equipment, if you're, you know, if your, you know, uniform is clean, if your shirt's tucked in, if you've got the, you know, your, your socks match of all these things, if you look like you belong, then you're going to perform better.

Tim Newman [00:04:57]:
And you know, that that's kind of something that really, really gets lost as we get older. I think.

Caden Broussard [00:05:03]:
Yeah, I think that that's right. And I think that, you know, to Jenny's point, I think in particular, like, you know, like the people we work with, you know, totally range in age from 20s all the way to, you know, 60s and 70s. But I think that, you know, as we get older it becomes harder to like make the change when it's like, you know, you're comfortable with, like, you're, you're comfortable with those. Totally makes sense. And I think that actually is the juncture where it can be helpful to have like another opinion on like, well, we could try these things because it's hard to make that change. Just, just yourself.

Tim Newman [00:05:35]:
Yeah. When you look at advertisement, you know, fashion advertisement, you know, it doesn't, I mean, not that I'm, you know, you know, I'm not going to fashion shows or things like that, but when you, when you look at commercials and stuff, you very rarely see commercials for men's clothes. And a lot of the times these things are really targeted at, you know, the younger generations, you know, the younger people for these styles. And you know, what I found when I was teaching was trying to get students to understand that you do have to make a pretty big transition from being a 18 or 19 year old student to into being a 23 to 24 year old professional.

Jinny Chen [00:06:21]:
Yeah, Kate and I both have that same experience of like in that transition, like suddenly like I remember my first job, I moved to New York and I'm like, I have none of my clothes fit to what I needed like for my new job or anything. And so I remember panicking a bunch in the new job of like, okay, like what I wear beyond just like a blazer and a shirt and like slowly trying to figure that out. It was a, a huge, a huge panic for me.

Tim Newman [00:06:47]:
Yeah. And what, what I also don't think people truly understand is how quickly people judge you. And again, this isn't right. It's not wrong. Just, it just is. And it's just what happens, how quickly they, they judge you before you even open your mouth. It's like two to three seconds to seven seconds. So they've made a judgment on you about how you look before you even say anything?

Caden Broussard [00:07:11]:
Yeah, yeah, I think that that's right, that I think a lot of people don't realize how quickly that happens. I used to be. It's all. It all abs of life, right? Like, I used to work for a bank and did a lot of work with like small business loans. And actually like one of the things you see in like the research there is that actually people have different outcomes if they're going into the bank in person versus on the phone. And part of that is because in person you can see someone and that's going to like, shape your opinion of them for better or for worse. And so I think that, that like, whether or not we realize it consciously, the way people treat us because of how we show up, like, is very material in like the professional world. You know, when we're going to get loans, like when we're, you know, meeting someone on a date, like, things like that.

Caden Broussard [00:07:57]:
And I think a lot of people don't realize how quickly that actually happens.

Tim Newman [00:08:03]:
Is there any actual data that shows about how appearance impacts both performance and perception?

Jinny Chen [00:08:11]:
There's been quite a few studies and people have like, to your point, like the seven seconds, like first impression. There's also quite documented like the halo effect of like, when someone associates you with like, competent, like everything around you, they just assume. And then like the lab coat one that was mentioning earlier, it's like they had put people into these like doctor's lab coats, but they told one group that like, hey, you're wearing a painter coat. In another group you're wearing a doctor's coat. And like same exact coat. But it's like your perception, it's not necessarily like how people perceived in that moment, but it's also like internally, if you feel like you're wearing something that like commands authority and knowledge and expertise, they found that that group made a lot less mistakes and performed a lot better. Which is so interesting because I know we talk a lot about like impressions too, but something that Kaden and I really are passionate about is like, how do I make sure that the person feels great too? And that is actually what matters more.

Tim Newman [00:09:12]:
So talk a little bit about that. How do you make sure somebody, somebody feels great in, in what they're wearing?

Caden Broussard [00:09:18]:
So I think that it can be different for every person. I will say that there's some things that are pretty, I think universally true over what we've seen where there's the basic, which you comment on already, which I actually think feeling comfortable, feeling like your clothes fit the way you want, but Actually those are really big, kind of must be true things. But I think that the other thing is like, I think people get confidence in what they wear for different reasons. Like there are, you know, a lot of our customers, hyper logical, like analytical. And I think that being shown the research of like, hey, this is a suit that like many professionals have said works well for them for like all of these reasons. And like here's all this documentation around like, you know, people in these professions are wearing these kind of. And there's like some people who really get a lot of comfort in like logic and analysis and numbers which you can actually get. And there are other people who I think get much more confidence in just having like a third party person be able to tell them like, hey, that actually really works for like your body.

Caden Broussard [00:10:17]:
Or like be honest about like, hey, actually like that doesn't quite suit like your lifestyle or where you're working. Like, why don't we try this other thing? I think that like being, I think actually part of feeling confident in what you wear is knowing that you have resources around you who are going to be honest about, you know, what things look like and aren't going to like send you out into the world like in a way that's like inappropriate.

Tim Newman [00:10:40]:
It's like if you voice manager or something.

Caden Broussard [00:10:42]:
Yeah, exactly, exactly. So I think it depends a little bit on the person, but those are some of the things we see of like, I think comfort and fit. Like, I think universally like those things need to be there for someone to feel really good. And then depending on the person, they may be more like logic based and interested in like, show me the research on like why this works works. And there are other people who are more like, I just want to know that someone is being honest with me about how this looks so that I can feel good than going out into the world and knowing like I'm showing up in the way I want.

Tim Newman [00:11:12]:
Yeah, yeah, that, that makes a lot of sense. You know, as I, as I'm listening and thinking about it, you know, females seem to talk more about how they look and if something fits or does do things match, does it look good with each other? But guys, we don't do that. We just, we'll go to our closet and we'll grab something and put it on and then it kind of is what it is. We don't, we don't ask, we don't ask those, those questions.

Caden Broussard [00:11:47]:
Yeah, I think there's much more of a, in general, like a culture among women of like, I think Jenny's gotten too many texts from me that are like this, of like, hey, we're going to speak at this event. Does this, does this look good? But I think that that is something that I haven't observed as much in like, male friends or like, clients or things like that. Like, and I think that actually is, like, really, really challenging when it's like, who do you go to? I think, yeah, it's a big, big question. And I think that, like, Nick feeling confident in dressing a lot. A lot.

Tim Newman [00:12:18]:
Or her.

Jinny Chen [00:12:20]:
Yeah. Guys almost have, like, not universally true, but a lot of, like, uniforms that you could wear almost. It's like certain combos. I know these work people wear them, which is why we're in San Francisco. So people make fun of, like, the Patagonia vest quite a lot of like, with like, the shirt. But that said, I think people still try to express in like, different ways that are like, maybe like, we see a lot of fun socks or like a cool sneaker or like, different ways to try to like, express, express like themselves. That is kind of not necessarily just like the shirt you wear or the pants.

Tim Newman [00:13:00]:
And it's funny you say that because again, I'm, I'm way older than, than you all, but I grew up with gray animals and what they did, they, they. There was like a tag that matched. So let's just say an elephant shirt matched an elephant pants or so that's how. Yeah, yeah. And that was, that was kind of how we grew up. And again, it was, it was kind of also how you got teased as well as a kid because, oh, you have to work your animals because you don't know what, what matches and goes together. Yeah. I mean, but as I think back, all, all the boys, that's what we had.

Tim Newman [00:13:48]:
It just, it's just what it was. And you know, I guess for parents, it made things real easy. You know, just, just grab the, grab the horse and put it on or whatever it is. But, you know, as. Again, as you get older and as you, as you make that transition again from being a student into, into being a professional, why is it that we, we aren't taught these things? Because I look at it again, not, not to get into. Too deep about the educational system. I think the educational system has failed us on any number of different levels. You know, from not talking about financial literacy to our soft skills are so bad.

Tim Newman [00:14:32]:
But, but even, even in how we present ourselves, none of these things are ever really talked about. Why is that?

Caden Broussard [00:14:40]:
Yeah, it's just a good question. I mean, I'm curious what you think actually too Jenny, about this. I think like, I think the things that kind of occur to me are a few things. Like I think one is like we've been talking about. I think that people really underappreciate how important like the way we present ourselves is. Like, I think it's often talked about is this like kind of superficial, shallow thing. But then to Jenny's point earlier, if you actually look at the research, it's really not like on a number of dimensions. But I think there is like that misconception and I think like, particularly for men, like, I think there's a cultural shift going on right now.

Caden Broussard [00:15:16]:
But I think in the past, like, you know, it's been more taboo for men to talk about like appearance and grooming and fashion and things like that. And I think that actually is changing a lot of right now, but there still is that, that gap. And so I also think there's you know, less of maybe a culture around like talking about these things openly as like a serious topic that makes sense to actually put thought and time into. So and again, I think like in maybe like the younger generation now, like you're seeing that changing a little bit more and like if you, you know, look more broadly, like some of the fastest growing categories and like, you know, beauty and grooming and things like that are actually men versus women. So I think there is like lots of indication that's changing. But I think at least when we were like in you know, high school, college, I think that was still like, maybe not quite taboo but just something that was less talked about for men in particular. Yeah. Yeah.

Tim Newman [00:16:22]:
Because men don't do that. Men don't talk about that. That's just not what men do. I mean, that's, that's the societal perspective. Right. And it's, it's, it's, it's funny that you say that it's changing because I did a presentation at an institution, college institution a little over a month ago and I was talking about some of the professional development things that, that they did. And the, the person I was talking to said the, the, the session that had the most participation of the students was one on dress for men.

Caden Broussard [00:16:54]:
Oh.

Tim Newman [00:16:54]:
So yeah, it kind of, kind of blew me away that more there were more men that attended and actually participated in the session than any of the other sessions that they did throughout the course of the year. And so there's maybe there is some change or maybe there is some acknowledgment that there needs to be some growth in that space as well.

Jinny Chen [00:17:22]:
I'm so curious. Is it dress for, like, work or every day?

Tim Newman [00:17:29]:
It was a professional dress presentation.

Jinny Chen [00:17:31]:
Oh, okay.

Tim Newman [00:17:34]:
And you know what? One of the things that I did as a professor is in one class each year, we came up with dress norms, and that was the dress norms for the entire program for that year. So the class. So one class address norms, one class did behavior norms. And it took us almost three full class periods to come up with three different levels of dress and to be able to get them to understand. And they, they really kind of guided. They ran the conversation. I guided them and said, well, no, we're not going to do that for this level of dress, and here's why. But.

Tim Newman [00:18:16]:
But to get them to understand that even in the professional setting, you have different time periods when things are appropriate and things aren't appropriate.

Jinny Chen [00:18:24]:
What were, what were some of the dress norms?

Tim Newman [00:18:28]:
So basically we broke it down into. Into three. From formal would be a suit, suit, and tie for guys. And one of the things that I said is I would never tell a female what to wear because that's just not. I mean, I can't even dress myself, let alone somebody else. So the females kind of did their thing. And I had another female professor kind of, you know, work on that one. But for guys, it was.

Tim Newman [00:18:53]:
We got really, really specific. So let's just say the former was a suit and tie where the belt had to match the shoes, you know, facial. Facial grooming, which was. Which was a big one in terms of what's appropriate and what's not appropriate, and all the way down to casual, which, which we talked about was like, like khakis and a golf shirt. But, you know, the shoes. Shoes and belts still had to match. You know, just things that people wouldn't necessarily think about. And, and one of the things you talk about, socks.

Tim Newman [00:19:35]:
I was always a no, weird socks. Just. I don't want. I just want plain socks. And I kind of gave in on that because, you know, if they want to wear funny socks and. Okay, from on a casual perspective, but not when we get all the way up to a formal perspective. Now we need to make sure that we're. We're really kind of buttoned up and we're.

Tim Newman [00:19:58]:
And we're living and breathing that, that, that, that scenario.

Jinny Chen [00:20:06]:
That's a great session. I'm glad you cover that with your students. And as you're saying, that reminded me, when I first started my first job in consulting, we had this big training, and for us, it was a lot less of, like, Cause you mentioned like, here's like you wear a suit, you match your belt with your shoes. I don't know if you feel this way, Kaden. I feel like we were given like a lot of restrictions. Like do not wear your skirt past your knees, don't wear open toe shoes. Your shirt like a collar, like the top collar must be like covering and must be a certain shape, but do not wear certain other shapes. And in many ways it's like these are the rules of what you can't wear.

Jinny Chen [00:20:47]:
But we weren't told as much of like what you can. And so it, it made me realize is like actually the women that come to our platform, they universally for the most part want professional wear. And then for men, it's a lot of like what I wear outside of professional because like you kind of already your belt with your shoes, like wear a shirt and a blazer and like they already have that uniform of like, I know how to do that. And so they're looking for like date night, going to hang out with friends and like casual wear versus for women. We're giving a lot of rules, but a lot less like this is how you put together an outfit. And so we get a lot of like what I wear to work, what is business casual, things like that.

Caden Broussard [00:21:31]:
Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, it's, it's a good point. I do think like, yeah, she's point. I think there's a much more kind of standardized like work uniform for, for men. And I feel like it's been interesting. One of like the like very specific use cases I hear come up a lot for men that men struggle with is like, what if I'm in like a professional environment? If it's like after work where it's like always things like, oh, it's like a work happy hour or it's like, you know, going to get lunch with my. Or it's, you know, the, the office holiday party. It's like those settings where you still want to look appropriate and buttoned up, but actually some of the restrictions have been loosened.

Caden Broussard [00:22:12]:
And I think that's where like people have a hard time, where it's like, okay, now the rule book is like unclear. So what do I do with that?

Tim Newman [00:22:21]:
You know, And I struggle with, with that as, as I help people sometimes because I think when you're younger there's less room for error. Right? Because as, as from, from the older and more senior people in an organization, they're judging people and they can, okay, if you're not going to be doing the things that we want you to do. And there's very little room for error. Especially you take Gen Z for example. If they mess one thing up, if they come off as arrogant or if they come off as not, not caring one time, then they're just kind of pushed aside as opposed to giving some grace and saying, okay, why, you know, give me some explanation on why you said that or why you look like that or why you did this or why you did that. There's, it's, it's just one mistake and now you're, now you're in the other, in the other pile. And I, I think that's always been the case but with Gen Z today and you know, it's really my generation and the boomer generation who is, is, is, is very in general intolerant of the younger generations and their ideas.

Caden Broussard [00:23:48]:
I, I was just going to say, Tim, I, I think like one of the reflections I had while you were talking was I, I think Jenny and I both worked for a couple years. We like had joined the workforce, you know, pre Covid, worked through Covid and then worked for a few years after Covid before going back to grad school. And I think one of the like reflections I had as you were talking was that I felt really bad for the people on my team who joined, who were Gen Z and who had never like worked pre Covid because I think like to your point, around like margin of error, I think it was like doubly hard for them because they didn't have exposure to, you know, how people dress in, in the workplace coming out of college because everything was remote. And so then it was very difficult like coming back into the office post Covid. And you could see in a lot of them like there was not as much awareness around like how do you know? Trust? Because they hadn't been exposed to that for, and I think to your point, it's unfortunate because like it feels like when you're junior there is very little room for error where like people are forming their first impressions of you and like those really stick in ways that are often kind of unfair. And I think that if you come into the office for the first time dressed in a way that isn't appropriate, that's the first impression people form of you. Like whether or not that that's fair and can be really hard to overcome.

Tim Newman [00:25:07]:
So what are three things that someone can, can fix immediately that'll change how they're perceived?

Jinny Chen [00:25:12]:
Oh, that's a good one. Three things. Maybe Kaden we can tag team. Like I'LL go. I think it's the dressing for like the right it this is probably non, could be a non answer but like, like the occasion that you're dressing for, right. If it's a professional, then you want to dress a little more professional. If it's casual, you might want to feel comfortable. Like oftentimes I, I, I think the perception is like you have to be very well dressed for every occasion.

Jinny Chen [00:25:47]:
But that's not the case. Like if I'm lounging at home, I'm hanging with friends, like sometimes I'll wear athleisure. It doesn't have to be always so buttoned up. And I think the number one is like actually like if you feel like you fit in or like you feel like you're dressed for the occasion. And so usually if it's like a high stakes thing, I'll put a little more effort and thought if it's low stakes, I keep reaching for the same thing over and over again because I feel, I feel great.

Caden Broussard [00:26:14]:
Yeah. I think related to that, especially for men, I think one big unlock is around fit. So on our platform for example we have people, it's optional, but you can do a body scan so that your stylist knows like your measurements and your body shape. And that actually goes a really long way in terms of like hey, you've been wearing these kind of slim cut pants but you know, they're probably too thigh tight around your thighs. So let's actually get you an athletic pants that's like athletic cut pants that's going to look a little more professional and refined. And I think that you can also do that by like you know, going into a store talking about talking to an associate. Like they can usually help you with things like that. I think fit is like a really big unlock in particular for men.

Caden Broussard [00:26:58]:
Even if you don't change like anything else, I think that makes a big difference in terms of like looking put together. I think the other thing that we see a lot of men in particular is like I to your point, there's that like wanting to be appropriate. But also I think people tend to just like look better and feel better when they have like some little amount of like self expression. And I think that one really easy way to do that that you, I don't know if you really cut him but I think a lot of bins struggle with is around like color. And I think that like that actually is a really easy unlock is like I think a lot of people like, I mean this is true for many of the Men in my life, like, look at their closets and are like, okay, I have blues and black and white. And I think that, like, even adding a couple of, like, colors and patterns that, like, actually kind of feel like they show more of yourself. Like, there are, like, really subtle ways to do that that are going to still look appropriate but are also going to make you feel like I have more variety. Like, there are things I can grab that make me actually feel a little more excited and, like, that is going to impact how people look at me and how I feel.

Caden Broussard [00:28:07]:
So, again, I think that's a. Like, that is often something that our stylists work with men on. And again, like, even if you're not working with a stylist, I think, like, highlighting that to, like, an associate or, like, pushing yourself in that dimension is a good way to feel a little more like I'm expressing myself. And there's variety. But also, I'm still kind of, like, in the realm of, like, what is appropriate. And, like, I don't feel like I stick out in a bad way.

Tim Newman [00:28:32]:
I think you kind of pointed me out without pointing me out.

Caden Broussard [00:28:36]:
I mean, you look great, Tim. I'm generalizing, but I've got a ton

Tim Newman [00:28:43]:
of blue shirts and I've got a ton of white shirts. I've got one red shirt. And even my casual stuff, it's pretty much all blue. It's for, you know, for. For whatever reason, it's. It's just kind of kind of worked out that way. And it's. It's almost funny you.

Tim Newman [00:28:59]:
You said that when I, When I walked into my office today, you know, work in an office building that's got five or six different professional, you know, organizations around, and the lawyer was coming out of his office, and he did a double take because I came in, I've got dress pants on, I've got my. My boots on, and I was wearing a white fishing shirt. And he said, tim, you don't match. I said, I know, because I keep a couple different shirts here in the office, depending on whether I'm going to be doing this or going out. You know, customer facing, like, so sometimes I wear shorts in here, and if I'm just doing a podcast, I'll just put a shirt on. Nobody can really tell. But if I'm going out, customer facing, I've got to make sure. Obviously make sure that I'm dressed appropriately.

Tim Newman [00:29:48]:
And when I came in this morning, it just really kind of threw him off because he didn't. He didn't recognize me in dress pants. Boots and, you know, my casual. My casual fishing shirt.

Caden Broussard [00:30:00]:
Yeah, that makes sense.

Tim Newman [00:30:02]:
So. And it wasn't blue, and so that must have really, really thrown him off. What about, you know, fabrics today? Because, you know, I think about almost everything that I. That I own, almost all the dress shirts that I own. If it's not ironed, it'll be wrinkled. Right. And so making sure things that. That are pressed and starched and.

Tim Newman [00:30:29]:
And look looks good. But a lot of materials today, you don't even have to. They don't have to be ironed. How has that really kind of changed how guys, in particular, how we go about dressing and thinking about things that we wear? Because again, going back to when I was. Was teaching, I would say your shirts has to be. Has to be pressed and you. And you have to put starch on it. For me, starch is important because the older clothes, if you didn't.

Tim Newman [00:31:02]:
You. If you. If you wore it and you were. You were sitting down, it was. It was going to wrinkle really, really, really quickly.

Jinny Chen [00:31:09]:
Yeah, I. I personally have a lot of clothes that wrinkle very, very quickly and had to, like, quickly steam them each time. Like, I think for this one constantly wrinkles, and so I, like, need to steam it beforehand. But I. I'm curious on, like, all the expansion of fabrics, too. Of, like, now we have kind. Kind of more to play with. Like, now you have silks and different textures and different drapes.

Jinny Chen [00:31:34]:
And I mean, I'm not an expert on this, but, like, a lot of our styling team is. But they love playing with, like, the way something drapes on a body looks a little bit differently of, like, if it's a little thicker, if it's a little thinner, how does it look like on you and how to pair them together. So it's kind of almost like expanding a little bit. The. The tools that you can play with and, like, express. And so, like, a lot of times people buy the same color over and over again, but a different, like a. And a different texture or a different. Almost like a slightly different flavor to the very similar thing.

Tim Newman [00:32:08]:
Yeah, yeah. And it allows, you know, going back to what you all mentioned, it's some of the things allowed to go from. From work into a casual situation very, very easily without really having to change anything. Mean, it could be really, if. If you're in a, you know, a suit and tie for a guy, just take off the suit, Jack, and take off the tie. And now you're, you know, you're. You're almost in maybe in an Up Casual, casual look. And it.

Tim Newman [00:32:38]:
And it's fine for, you know, for going out to drinks or on a date or, you know, what have you, as opposed to having to go home and. And change clothes or. Or something of that nature.

Caden Broussard [00:32:50]:
Yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, going back to the previous point, you asked Tim around, like, quick things people can do today to look better. I do think that actually is a big one of. And I think I. I personally find this difficult, but I think it's true of, like, one of the kind of big pieces of advice our stylists always give is like, you know, if you're doing kind of the closet, clean out before you buy a bunch of new things. Like, you should be kind of ruthless about, like, something is too small, if there are stains, if there are rips, if it's worn, like, just to throw it out, like, donate it. Like, I think that, like, it's so simple, but, like, a lot of the things that just make you look more put together are, like, is the collar on your shirt like, you know, standing up and not really worn? Is it like. And, like, is.

Caden Broussard [00:33:34]:
If there's a big. If there's like a visible stain on something, like, that's something people are going to notice. And so I think a lot of it is like, kind of in those, like, simple details of, like, yeah, you know, being a little bit ruthless about, like, getting rid of things that are. Or maybe not wearing things that are past their prime to two places where you feel like you really do need to look put together. And that also, I think, goes a long way in terms of, you know, instantly making you look a little more. More elevated.

Tim Newman [00:34:03]:
And again, you call me out again. Almost all my. Almost every shirt I have as a stain on it. But that's okay. I can't help that. You know, it's. It's. Again, it's.

Tim Newman [00:34:18]:
It's really funny. I was at a. An event last August and new shirts, two new suits. And my wife told me, she. She was very, very specific. She said when you go into this, because I was. I was getting some professional pictures done and I was actually interviewing somebody. And she said, when you do these things, this is what you have to do.

Tim Newman [00:34:48]:
I didn't do any of it. Didn't do any of it. Got it all wrong. And she said, if you get a stain on any of these new shirts, I'm not buying any. Any new shirts ever again. And I didn't get any stains on the shirt the first time I wore it. But the second and third time they're ruined now. But it's.

Tim Newman [00:35:05]:
It's important. The stain thing, I think, is huge, especially if it's. If it's not something that can be covered up with a jacket or. Or tire or what have you. Because it. I think when you have a stain on your shirt, it's almost like guys not taking care of their shoes, not having polished shoes. It's something that is noticed right away and diminishes what other people think of you, whether you realize it or not.

Caden Broussard [00:35:33]:
Mm. Yeah, I think that's right. And I think that. I think that, honestly, like, this is why I think that, like, really, stylists, like, don't just understand, like, fashion, but they also understand you and your lifestyle. Because I think that, like, the reality is, like, I'm also someone who. I stained clothes really easily. Like, and so I think that just means that when I go buy new clothes, I'm, like, conscientious. I buy things that can be, like, machine washed or, like, things that are a little more resilient.

Caden Broussard [00:36:03]:
Like, I think that a really good stylist is also good at, like, understanding, like, not just, here's what's gonna look good on you and here's fat, but, like, here's your lifestyle, and, like, here are the kind of clothes that are actually going to suit your lifestyle versus, like, maybe you don't want a whole wardrobe of things that have to be dry cleaned. Like, that might not be reasonable for a lot of people. And I think that's hopefully totally fine.

Tim Newman [00:36:25]:
Yeah, so it's almost like it's more about who you are in your identity as opposed to the actual clothes that you're actually wearing. So let's talk about cello and what you all do and how it actually works, because, again, I think it's amazing what we've. How quickly we've come from a technology perspective and what we can actually do with it, and what you all are doing with cello and fashion is. It's incredible to me. So walk us through the process.

Jinny Chen [00:37:08]:
Yeah. So basically, to start, we try to get as much information about you, your context, your lifestyle as possible. And so we'll hop on a call. Kind of like this, except not on the podcast, but you're going through your closet. It's about 20 to 30 minutes, and on average, we probably scan, and we start scanning your clothes. So we get probably, like, 70 items on average. Render that. So we have a sense of, like, what you like, the brands that you like, what your previous shopping habits are, and, like, kind of what we're Working with.

Jinny Chen [00:37:37]:
Because we don't want you to like overhaul your closet or do brand new shopping just for the sake of like getting a new wardrobe. Like, how do you maximize that? But also like, during the call, we're also chatting with you of like, what is your lifestyle? Do you like, are you like, I guess three of us where we stay in our clothes pretty often and so like, we need more durable clothing or do you not mind being a little more like delicate with your clothes? And you can like, then we can expand through like different fabrics, like silks and things like that. So getting a sense of what works for you. And we also scan your body so we know, like, to Keenan's point, like men's tailoring is important. Like, fit is one of the key things to know if like an outfit looks great. And so we scan that too. And so we're able to custom tailor things to you and what you're looking for. So like, what are your lifestyles? So you go to work, you're going on a dinner date, and then you like to hang out, like, are you traveling for vacation? So like those occasions giving you some outfit combinations, but also kind of some lessons to learn of like things that are easy combo so you don't actually have to go back to styles every day.

Jinny Chen [00:38:41]:
Of like, oh, like, how do I pair certain colors together? One tip that I learned from stylists is actually the, the earth tone, cool tone matching. So like blues and grays match really well. And like what are the color combos? Things like that. And so from There, in that 20 minutes, we gather all that context about you, send it over to a stylist. And our stylists are really, they're fashion, they're trained in fashion. Like they graduate from like your top fashion houses like Parsons Fit. And they like know how to like the garments construct and how they pair well together. And so they'll go through, look at your wardrobe, tell you you're missing often, like what you're missing like, often times for a lot of guys, it's color.

Jinny Chen [00:39:24]:
For women, it's like, oh, you're missing certain. For me specifically, like, I'm missing a lot of like different textures and like different layers to play with. And so give you a couple things to shop within the price range and the budget that you are comfortable with. And so we can work from like high end if you're comfortable, but also like even low end or if you're like a thrifter, things like that. If you're a little more budget conscious, we can work with that too, because there are a lot of different options and then create the outfit combinations for you.

Tim Newman [00:39:55]:
So when you talk about textures, what does that mean for guys?

Jinny Chen [00:40:00]:
So for guys, it's a lot of, like, typically it's like a lot of shirts, but then there's like sweaters, and they're all, like, different prints. And like, there are different, like, we were talking about fabrics earlier, too. Like, actually, actually, if you introduce something, an interesting texture to an outfit, it can like, make it a little. Look a little more cohesive and a little different too.

Tim Newman [00:40:23]:
Yeah. Because I. And again, this is just. Just the way I am. And I'm. Again, I'm a plain and simple person. You know, if it's. When.

Tim Newman [00:40:36]:
If my wife wants to introduce something that is, like, different, I'm very, very resistant to it. So, like, for me, if I were to come. Let's just think here. So I. I bought a. Obviously it was blue. It was kind of a. I wouldn't say checkered, but had.

Tim Newman [00:40:59]:
It was small squares. And my wife said, wow, I can't believe that you would even buy that. I said, well, I like it because it was blue. But that, to her really kind of threw her off. That wasn't really my style, but I liked it. So once you start getting into, at least for me, things that are maybe not conservative, let's just put this way, not conservative, that really kind of throws me off, and I probably wouldn't wear it. And so when do you take those things into account as well?

Caden Broussard [00:41:33]:
Yeah. Yeah, it's a really good question. Yeah. On that, like, kind of intake call that Ginny's describing, we'll usually probe on, like, hey, where do you feel comfortable? Like, what are the things that, like, you know, are just like, complete no go's for you? But we've also found is, like,

Jinny Chen [00:41:50]:
I.

Caden Broussard [00:41:51]:
I think one, it can sometimes be helpful to. To suggest a few things that we think are going to be outside your comfort zone, even if it's just a way to get feedback. So, like, what arts process typically works is, like, after we have all that context to Jenny's point, and like, it goes off to a stylist, we'll come back with an initial set of recommendations of, like, here's what I think you're missing, here's what you might want to buy, and here's how this could look in art outfits. But in that process, we build in, like, a feedback loop where you go through that initial, like, kind of set of looks and like, say, I like that. I don't like that. And here's why. And it actually can be kind of helpful to include some things that, like, we sort of know, like, hey, this could look good on you, but, like, you might not feel comfortable in it, because it's good to kind of explore the. Like, what are the boundaries? And, like, if you.

Caden Broussard [00:42:33]:
Some people. Some people are excited to kind of push the boundary, and they're like, yeah, I. I want to completely. Completely, you know, change my style. And, like, you should suggest things I would never think of. And other people are like, you know, actually, I. I. In general, I like my style, and it's more like I want to elevate on the edges, but I don't want to, like, completely stray from it.

Tim Newman [00:42:52]:
Right.

Caden Broussard [00:42:53]:
So. So we see both types, and we build that into the process of, like, we're gonna, like, getting your feedback is. Is very important because ultimately, this is about making you feel good, and it's not about, like, pushing an identity on you that isn't. Isn't true to you.

Tim Newman [00:43:06]:
Right.

Caden Broussard [00:43:07]:
And then there's kind of a range in terms of how far people are wanting to go in terms of, like, really doing something new versus just, like, kind of elevating sort of what's already there.

Tim Newman [00:43:19]:
So with your. With your clients, do they range in age? Let's just say from. From. Let's just say I'm. I'm late 50s to down to early 20s.

Jinny Chen [00:43:32]:
Yeah, it's anywhere from 25 to 75 is kind of like our. It's a huge range. And I. I think it's because, like, no matter if you're, like, younger and you're, like, exploring your new style, if you're older, like, I think it's always, like, people like to be slightly pushed. Like, I think Kaden mentioned, like, you're either pushing on the edges or you're doing a full transformation. But, like. Like, I think, Tim, like, we don't need to show you, like, how to buy another blue shirt. Like, you already know how to do that quick.

Tim Newman [00:44:05]:
I'm pretty good at that.

Jinny Chen [00:44:08]:
People are always looking to, like, be stretched a little bit farther. Okay. Like, what is something that I haven't thought about? And so it's the. The how far we're stretching them that we're playing around with. Like, some people want to do, like, blue with a little. With, like, a small detail, and other people are like, okay, I want to try a full different color palette.

Tim Newman [00:44:29]:
Is there something that. That your customers struggle with that really kind of surprise you?

Caden Broussard [00:44:38]:
That's a good question. You know, it's Interesting. I think that one thing that I've noticed, and you kind of were mentioning this, Tim, is like, especially for some of the, you know, the guys who are in like, let's say like 35 plus, who a lot of them have partners, like have a girlfriend, have a wife, things like that, and who will do a lot of the, like, shopping for them. I think something that's been interesting to me is like, there's been a couple of customers we've worked with who said, like, I simultaneously really appreciate that like my partner is like buying these things for me and like giving me fashion advice. But there is this piece of like, oh, but like, I kind of wanted to do this because I wanted like an objective third party opinion from someone. And, and I think that there is something there of like, you know, even if you have a support system, like a, like a, you know, girlfriend, wife, you know, whatever, who's like helping you make these decisions every so often, I think people do struggle when it's like, okay, like, but what would someone who doesn't know me and like, love me and all of that say, like about, you know, what I'm wearing? I think there's like, I got something people struggle with and there's a lot of like, comfort you can get from that when it's like, okay, I have like a more objective expert opinion now whether that's good or bad. Like, I think that something that kind of surprised us was like, people don't just want you to tell them like, oh, you look amazing. Like, they want you to be honest about like, yeah, like, like that could be some kind of tough love of like, hey, like actually, you know this, like these, like you're not reaching your potential in terms of like how you could, could really look.

Caden Broussard [00:46:13]:
So I think that I, I had been, I hadn't realized that going in that like, actually a lot of what people struggle with is like needing that kind of like expert, neutral, third party opinion to feel really good about the decisions they're. They're making, which I, I hadn't expected.

Tim Newman [00:46:29]:
That is so interesting. Just from the, from the perspective of we're so worried about other people judging us, you know, and. Wow. So on some level, would it be fair to say that it's mostly the, like you said, the 35 plus the older generations that is thinking that as opposed to, you know, the 20 to 30, 35 group is, is doing. Would that be fair to say?

Caden Broussard [00:47:03]:
Yeah, I, I think that's probably right. Judy, I'm curious what you think, but I think that's like a sentiment I've heard more from, like, slightly older, like, more mature professionals. I think it's something that you hear like, with younger generation as well. But I, I think that, like, there is something about, like, if you're like, slightly older and you're kind of around, you know, fewer, like, new ideas and perspectives and like, fashion and stuff like that. I think you have more curiosity around, like, like, are there other things I should be thinking about? Like, I'm not quite sure. Like, I'm hearing this from the people in my life, but, like, maybe it'd be good to hear from someone else who is just like an outsider. So that, that's my, my impression based on our customers. But you know, Jenny, I don't know if you have.

Caden Broussard [00:47:48]:
If you kind of had the same, the same thought.

Jinny Chen [00:47:51]:
Yeah, I. Okay. I have a theory and I think, like, when you're younger, you're, you know, you're in school, you're going to a lot of like, so you get feedback really quickly. Like, there's a lot. If you wear an outfit and like, it doesn't look good, like, you immediately go out and people give you that feedback and like, tell you, hey, that doesn't look great. And I think, like, as you're older, like, you go, you kind of like, hang around the same areas, but you don't get, like, ton of people coming in and be like, okay, like that, like, so it's a little bit harder to adjust. Which is that, I think is why people, like, appreciate like an expert opinion. And so.

Jinny Chen [00:48:29]:
And then I think there's also like, this generation thing. Like, I think younger Gen Z and like, younger generations take a lot of information and approval from their peers versus, like, the older generation care a lot more about, like, experts. And like, they. That's how they take in information. So it's a little bit of like, how generations think

Tim Newman [00:48:51]:
it's so interesting. I mean, it's. And I think there's. There's also separation between the way males and females take. Take that as well for me, and I laugh. I was doing a webinar and I had a question that didn't really have anything to do with me or what I was wearing. And I asked the question and the person who was leading the webinar actually pulled up my profile on the website, and the first thing she said to me is, tim, you have to change your clothes and you got to get better pictures. Like, oh, my God.

Tim Newman [00:49:37]:
And I started laughing because to me, I get it. I mean, I mean, this is what you're working with. There's only so much I can do. But some people take that stuff really personal and, you know, guys, to me, don't take it nearly as personal as females do. And, you know, being able to understand where she was just trying to help as opposed to really, really, really trying to. To make a. Make a personal attack on somebody.

Caden Broussard [00:50:11]:
Yeah, I think that. I think that's right. And I think it. It, like, does require a lot of, you know, trust and care to be able to deliver, like, feedback to someone. But I think at the end of the day, it's really appreciated. And I think, like, you feel better when, you know, like, okay, someone will tell me if this isn't quite working versus they'll just let me go into the world of looking like a way that I wouldn't want to. Yeah, right.

Tim Newman [00:50:36]:
Right. So if someone wanted to be actually taken serious tomorrow, what's the one thing they need to fix tonight?

Jinny Chen [00:50:44]:
Oh, that's a good question. I'm gonna need to take a quick second think on it. If someone want to get serious about, like, dressing, well, is that. What should they do tonight? I think Kaden's point earlier of, like, actually, like, a lot of our clients struggle to build their wardrobe until they feel like they shed away the stuff that to make space, like, I would get rid of the things that don't fit you well, are not comfortable. And so sometimes, like, psychological, like, you can't really make space for more items. And like, some, like, sometimes, like, closet space is quite limited.

Caden Broussard [00:51:20]:
Yeah. Yeah, I totally agree. I think that to Jenny's point, like, so much of it is psychological and, like, I think that you actually feel better in the morning where you grab a shirt or pair of pants and, like, if it's well and it's not stained and you can wear it immediately versus, like, I think a lot of the struggles some of our customers have. Have highlighted is like, oh, I have this full closet. But then there's something wrong with everything. Like, like, things don't fit anymore. They have holes in them. They have stains.

Caden Broussard [00:51:47]:
Like, you know, this shirt is 10 years old and it's worn out. Like, I think that that adds a lot of, like, cognitive burden. And to Jenny's point, just actually doing kind of a sweep and like, seeing like, okay, out of this wardrobe, what do I actually already have that, like, I feel good in and I love, like, that actually will go a long way before you even, like, buy new things.

Tim Newman [00:52:10]:
It's so interesting and it. That's hard to do.

Jinny Chen [00:52:15]:
Yeah.

Tim Newman [00:52:16]:
As I think about it, you know, to. To. To get rid of. Of things that, you know, clothes, I think a lot of times have sentimental value, and there's. There's some sentimental attachment to it, like either who you're with when you got it or who you're with when you. When you wore whatever it is. And you don't want, you know, you don't necessarily wear it anymore, but you don't want to get rid of it. And it's taking up that space.

Tim Newman [00:52:43]:
That's kind of hard, as I think about. That's kind of a hard thing to do.

Jinny Chen [00:52:48]:
It is hard to do. And I think it's like, kind of funny, like, counterintuitive. Like, you ask, like, how do you dress better? And our answer is get rid of. Get rid of.

Tim Newman [00:52:57]:
Get rid of your clothes.

Jinny Chen [00:53:00]:
But it's kind of like when you go to a restaurant and the restaurant has a ton of different menu options.

Tim Newman [00:53:06]:
Yeah.

Jinny Chen [00:53:06]:
You take a long time to figure out, like, what you actually want versus, like, one that has three options. It's like I'm choosing between three things that I like if you're. If it's your clothes, it's like three things that fit me well. And I already like it versus trying to have to do, like, the mental gymnastics of, like, thwarting three things. But I, I totally understand the sentimental value. Like, I personally have a lot of clothes that I'm, like, struggling to. I'm like. But I haven't worn it in, like, over two years, so clearly it's time to get rid of it.

Jinny Chen [00:53:37]:
But I think that's okay. And oftentimes what we'll do with our customers is, like, actually, like, if you need an objective person to tell you keep or not keep, like, we can give you, like, some thoughts of, like, actually, like, this doesn't start you. You can keep it if it's sentimental, but, like, you're probably not going to wear it.

Tim Newman [00:53:56]:
What are your thoughts on, like, laying. Picking you whatever you're going to wear out tonight for tomorrow, as opposed to getting up and deciding in the morning what you're going to wear?

Jinny Chen [00:54:09]:
Oh, I think it's personal. I. Personal preference. One thing that I recently just started doing is I actually plugged my cello, like, all my clothes into like, an AI bot that looks at the weather and then it looks at, like, my calendar of the things that I'm doing. I actually got this idea from a friend because she started doing that with, like, with cello too. And so it sends me an email every morning of, like, based on the weather based on what you're doing. Here's the outfit combination because I have a ton of outfits in there already that my stylist created for me. And so I.

Jinny Chen [00:54:44]:
But that for me comes. And I specifically set it for the morning and not the night of. And so mostly because I like to just pick things like on the day of what I'm feeling. But I know a lot of people who lay their clothes out the night before or like plan in advance. Kitten, what do you do?

Caden Broussard [00:55:02]:
Well, Jenny's kind of a tech whiz, so I was, I've been like, jenny, could you build this for me too? So I have it. Selfishness. This is a reminder to ask her to do that all of her other work.

Jinny Chen [00:55:16]:
Yeah, Yeah.

Caden Broussard [00:55:16]:
I think I'm. I'm also, I think more of a. But I do think I. When I have like a high pressure event or like something where I might. I'm gonna have to speak or I'm in a interview or like I have a meeting that like I really need to show up. Well for. I'll do it the night before because I think that like there is something like I've definitely felt the panic before of like, oh my God, I have to go to like this job interview. And I.

Caden Broussard [00:55:41]:
It's the morning of. And actually I realized the skirt I was going to wear has a stain on it. And now I don't know. It's like, I think that for really high stakes events I like to avoid that. And so I'll do it like in advance. But otherwise I'm a morning. Morning person.

Tim Newman [00:55:57]:
That's awesome. I rotate. So whatever's next.

Jinny Chen [00:56:01]:
Yeah.

Tim Newman [00:56:01]:
So it doesn't really matter what it is. Whatever's next, that's, that's kind of what it is. Unless there's something important and then I'll, I'll, I'll rearrange it. But what you do is. It's fascinating that that's where we are with technology that I'm a big believer in, that the people that are the smartest and that are the most busy make the least mundane decisions, like what they're going to wear, what they're going to eat. Those other things are. They let other things drive those decisions so that they can spend their, their mental time and mental energy on, on bigger things. And with AI being able to do that, my guess is I don't know how long it took you to set that up, but once it's set up, it's.

Tim Newman [00:56:48]:
You're. You're done with that now, right? Unless you want to make it make a change. And that's probably wouldn't take much to, to, to. To change that, that prompt or whatever. And now you're just. You freed up a heck of a lot of time.

Jinny Chen [00:57:04]:
I do, yeah. And I think for mine, I like to choose from outfits, so it gives me, like, to choose from. So it's like a small menu Right. Each morning. And I think the decision making is more like, I feel confident in these because, like, my stylists have already created these outfits. Right. And they had like, like a human had acknowledged it and it looked good and it was like, I feel confident, like, okay, like now I'm just a improving.

Tim Newman [00:57:28]:
Right.

Jinny Chen [00:57:29]:
And so like taking a lot of that mental burden out of it. I think it's kind of fun that like, tech has allowed us to do that now.

Tim Newman [00:57:39]:
Yeah.

Jinny Chen [00:57:40]:
But like, sometimes it is fun. Like sometimes I am in the mood to like, play dress up and like, figuring things out. And then if I'm super busy, it really depends on like, what I'm doing that day.

Tim Newman [00:57:49]:
And if I'm busy, well, so, so does it. I don't want to get too far into weasels, but does it take into account that you've worn something so many times and haven't worn something that many times?

Jinny Chen [00:58:02]:
Yeah, a little more like variety. And so if I already, like, if I'm like, Kate and I often go to like, speaking events and like pitching and so like.

Tim Newman [00:58:12]:
Right.

Jinny Chen [00:58:12]:
If I've already worn this and I've been like, photographed in it, probably want to wear something a little different. Yeah. And like, oftentimes it's probably like, if it's recommending me the same. And that's important because like, like laundry, if things are dirty, like, you don't want to wear the same thing that same week or like within a few weeks. And so some variety. But I'm also not of someone who like, needs constant variety and so takes that into account too.

Tim Newman [00:58:37]:
That's awesome. That's. It's. It's fascinating to me. So, so where can people connect with you and learn more about cello?

Caden Broussard [00:58:44]:
Yeah. So I think the best thing would be to visit our website if anyone has interest in learning more or getting styled. So we're at o C-E-L-L o closet.com or you can always email me or Ginny@hello cellocloset.com but yes, we, like, are actively taking more clients. Like, would love to style folks and connect, so would be great to check us out.

Tim Newman [00:59:13]:
Well, thank you so much for joining us. And I love what you're doing. It's amazing. And you'll be seeing my email coming over. I think you're gonna make my wife a lot happier, take a lot of pressure off her. Keep up the good work. Again, I love what you're doing. I love that you two do this together and that you're on here together.

Tim Newman [00:59:41]:
You know, through all the interviews I've done, I think you're only the second time that I've had both people on at the same time. And I just think it brings so much more to what you all are doing and to the interview. So thank you so much for making the time to do that.

Jinny Chen [00:59:58]:
Thanks, Tim. Really appreciate it.

Caden Broussard [01:00:01]:
Thanks, Tim.

Tim Newman [01:00:03]:
Take care and we'll talk to you soon.

Jinny Chen [01:00:04]:
You too. Bye.

Tim Newman [01:00:07]:
Be sure to Visit speaking with confidencepodcast.com to get your free eBook, the top 21 challenges for public Speakers and How to Overcome Them. You can also register for the Forum for Public Speaking course. Always remember, your voice has the power to change the world. We'll talk to you next time. Take care.