Tim Newman [00:00:09]:
Most people don't struggle with confidence. They struggle with identity. And if you've ever had to rebuild who you are in a completely different culture, you know exactly what I mean. Welcome back to Speaking with Confidence, the podcast that helps you build the soft skills that lead to real results. Communication, storytelling, public speaking, and showing up with confidence in every conversation that counts. I'm Tim Newman, a recovering college professor turned communication coach, and I'm thrilled to guide you on a journey to becoming a powerful communicator. Today's guest is Ana Denis. Anais a public speaking and communication coach, TEDx organizer, and author researching what it truly means to find your voice.

Tim Newman [00:00:51]:
With more than 20 years of experience in marketing, public relations, media, and cross-cultural communication. She blends research-based frameworks with her own reinvention journey to help people express themselves with clarity and authenticity without fear of becoming visible. Her mission is to support communication across cultures, listening deeply, collaborating with ease, and building genuine connections. Anais the founder of Reinvento Club, a space for reinventors and an organizer of TEDxTheHague. Anna, welcome to Speaking with Confidence.

Ana Denis [00:01:26]:
Thank you, Tim. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Tim Newman [00:01:30]:
I'm so excited you're here. And it's going to be a lot of fun because we're going to talk about something we don't generally talk about, and that's reinventing yourself based on moving from one culture to another. And you moved from Russia to the Netherlands, right? Yeah. And, and that really kind of forced you to rethink everything— your language, your culture, even how you, how you showed up. And you didn't just have to learn communication, you had to reinvent yourself. What were— what part of your identity got challenged the most in that process?

Ana Denis [00:02:09]:
Oh, that's such an interesting question. It's just, I never expected the difference to be so big because from our point of view, it was just Europe. It's so close, right? And probably people think in the same way, they have the same values, they, they do things similarly every day. But when I got here in the Netherlands, what I realized is that this culture is truly unique. It is unique for not only for me, but for everyone. And there are a lot of expats here. I'm kind of in the expat community, so I get to meet people from different walks of life, but also from different parts of the world. And it's, it's been difficult for everyone because it's unique, for example, in its individualism.

Ana Denis [00:02:59]:
So it's a very individualistic culture, which is kind of creates some kind of friction with collectivist cultures. If you are accustomed to working in a team and you are accustomed that all the decisions are made together and you have to consult your team before going on a higher level of management, then here it's just, you know, you are very independent. You are like an intrapreneur. were an entrepreneur working within a company and you have your own set of responsibilities and then it's up to you to make the decision. And it's just, it's not good or bad. It's just different. And sometimes it just challenges your worldview and the way you used to do things.

Tim Newman [00:03:51]:
You know, and I'm glad you said it's not good or bad. It just, It just is because that's especially here in the United States. I think, you know, we put, we put values on things that maybe we shouldn't put values on. It's just—

Ana Denis [00:04:05]:
Mm-hmm.

Tim Newman [00:04:06]:
It's not right. It's not wrong. It just, it just is. And you talk about, you know, changing cultures, you know, going from one country to another is, is obviously very different than here in the United States, let's just say, because I grew up in the Mid-Atlantic, maybe Northeast, but I've, I've traveled all over all over the country here and even going from one state to another culture is a little bit different. But I can't imagine going from, from one country like Russia to the Netherlands and trying to, to assimilate. And how was it like learning the language and learning those, those individual cultural customs initially? And how long did it take you to really feel welcomed in that culture?

Ana Denis [00:04:55]:
So, it's an interesting story. I first moved to, well, I moved to the Netherlands in 2021, and I moved here with my own startup. So, back then, I had a goal of just going through a startup management program. So, it was like a mini MBA for me. And back then, we made this decision with my husband, and we only wanted to stay for a year and then just see how it goes. Now, what happened is 4 months after we moved to the Netherlands, the war started. And then we kind of, we were out of options and we realized that this is our new home. We are not going anywhere.

Ana Denis [00:05:38]:
So we don't have the flexibility of going back. So we need to find our new home and build that new identity.

Tim Newman [00:05:48]:
Right.

Ana Denis [00:05:49]:
And the reason it was so complicated was because we were both entrepreneurs. So, unlike most people who get invited by big companies and who get jobs at a big company, and then you get a lot of things figured out already, like housing and documents, there is always someone who can help you with any question that you have. When you move to a foreign, to another country as an entrepreneur, you are under a lot of stress because basically everything's new. You have no one to ask for help. You don't know anyone. When we moved here, we only knew one person from this country.

Tim Newman [00:06:31]:
Oh, wow.

Ana Denis [00:06:32]:
And that was my first experience living in an English-speaking environment, which is not exactly an English-speaking environment, but overall Dutch people do have a good command of English. And you might expect that when you get in here. So it was all new. It was not easy. I didn't expect it to be that difficult, but the first step was, well, the big misconception was that Everyone speaks English here because if you wanna move to the Netherlands, that's what you will read online. Like if you ask ChatGPT, like, will I feel welcome in the Netherlands if I speak English? Yes, because lots of people are proficient, they're almost fluent, but again, English is their second language. So, and, and no, nothing replaces that authentic connection that you get with a person when you are speaking their language.

Tim Newman [00:07:31]:
Yeah.

Ana Denis [00:07:31]:
And again, in many cases when you are, for example, working with, when, yeah, you're requesting information from municipalities and other parties, it's only in Dutch. When you go to a local store, everything's in Dutch. So you kind of prompted to learn the language at least to a certain extent.

Tim Newman [00:07:58]:
So were you relatively proficient in English when you moved there, or did you have to— did it take you some time? And how proficient are you in Dutch now?

Ana Denis [00:08:10]:
You know, it's strange because I graduated from a linguistic university with 2 languages, English and Spanish. So I had a good command of both English and Spanish, but I graduated when I was 22, and back then I had never been abroad. So, that was— that has always been my dream, traveling, seeing other cultures, meeting different people, but I have never been abroad because, yeah, I do not come from a wealthy family. My parents haven't been abroad either, never. So, I kind of, and it's a strange feeling, right? So, you are, I'm an international journalist, I'm supposed to speak those languages, but I have Imagine that I had never met a person whose first language is English back then. And when I first went abroad, I guess I was 23 and I was terrified because you are— I was so afraid to make mistakes in my sentences. I was so afraid. Well, even if my pronunciation was fair and well, quite good, I was still afraid that people will not understand what I'm saying or I will not use the right words.

Ana Denis [00:09:29]:
So it was a terrifying experience, but then I traveled to over 50 countries and I realized that in most cases, you don't need to have a very— you don't need to be very fluent in English, right? So you only need like You, you only need to speak in very fixed situations when you are traveling. And then what also happened next is I got a job in an international company, so I started to work in an international environment and I kind of, yeah, my confidence grew a lot from being in this environment, but still I never worked in an English-speaking environment entirely until I got here. And when I got here, my perception of this country was like, I don't need to speak Dutch, at least for the time being, because everyone speaks English here. And yeah, I can, if my English is good enough, then I will have no problem getting a job or meeting people or just connecting. And then what I discovered very, fastly. Is that— that wasn't true. No, you need to learn the language as a sign of appreciation to my new home culture and as a way of showing people that you are not a foreigner and you are taking it seriously, you are taking people seriously. So, my Dutch is currently at a B2.

Ana Denis [00:11:09]:
B1 level. I'm following an intensive course that takes you from B1 to B2, which basically means that I can operate in everyday scenarios like going to a store or going to a restaurant is not a problem. But whenever I have to give a talk in Dutch, I cannot do that yet.

Tim Newman [00:11:33]:
Well, let's talk about, you know, You mentioned earlier that when you speak to somebody in their language, that connection becomes so much stronger. Talk about that from a perception of just like everyday conversations. When you speak to somebody in Dutch, the transformation that you see in their body language, their facial expressions, their tone, their warmth and response to you as opposed to speaking in English or another language.

Ana Denis [00:12:07]:
Yeah, exactly. That's what I've seen happening to so many people and that happens, you know, I also speak Spanish and when I go to Spain, I first pretend to be a foreigner because my Spanish is not that fluent now, but as I start to speak the local language, I see how people's faces and their body language changes. And you are absolutely right. Like yesterday, I was giving a talk on how to craft your signature talk for TEDx. And one of the attendees was a woman from the Netherlands. She was basically my friend and we've met each other like a year ago. Back then, I could barely say anything in Dutch. And yesterday I threw in a few phrases in Dutch and she was like, oh.

Ana Denis [00:13:01]:
I mean, there's so much talk about the fact that AI will replace that and we will all have glasses, you know, that are translating everything that other— another person is saying to us and we won't need to learn the languages, but honestly, being an international journalist and a translator at the beginning of my career, that's what I've been hearing for 20 years. Yeah.

Tim Newman [00:13:29]:
Yeah. I don't know. Let's just say that that eventually becomes true. And we know that there are some of those things out there now. The reality is that's not going to change that interpersonal, true human connection and communication, because even if you do have that translation, people still want to have that authentic touch, that authentic communication, that authentic— because it's really connection. The language and the words and the tone and all those things are part of what make the connection so strong.

Ana Denis [00:14:08]:
Exactly. I agree with you 100%. It's all about connection. And what I perhaps— I do believe that at some point we will have the devices and if you don't want to learn any languages, like, I mean, you, you won't have to because you will be, you will have a device that will do the job for you. What I, the idea that I don't like about that is perhaps cutting corners.

Tim Newman [00:14:36]:
Yeah.

Ana Denis [00:14:36]:
It's like communication and connection is such a wonderful process, discovering a new person for you, getting to know them, learning the language and the culture. That is beautiful. And I really wouldn't love to cut corners on that. So I do understand that for certain scenarios and for certain people, that is necessary. And I mean, if you have to carry out negotiations with your Saudi Arabian counterpart, that's what you need to do. You won't learn Arabic in 3 months.

Tim Newman [00:15:09]:
Right.

Ana Denis [00:15:10]:
But then again, if you have the interest, when you have the interest, of getting closer to other cultures and meeting different people, then that's what's creating the connection.

Tim Newman [00:15:24]:
Yeah. And even if you're not good at it, but at least making the attempt, attempting to use words and terminologies and trying to pronounce things the correct way, that builds the trust as well, even if you don't get it right, because they see that you're trying. They see that you're not just trying to do it your way. You're at least attempting to learn and connect with them. And that sometimes is the biggest hurdle to overcome.

Ana Denis [00:15:55]:
Exactly. And people appreciate that so much. And that actually makes you truly unique. Like, for example, there is a language school in Russia that teaches different languages. Well, They were mainly focused in English, but now they're teaching lots of languages. And there are several people from all over the world, Americans from other countries and cultures as well, who learned Russian and they have a truly good command of Russian. Now, for you, I realize that's not amazing and incredible because so many people speak English, but for us, Like people who learn Russian, people who come from other cultures, it is just incredible because if, well, it's impossible to learn. We have 6 different cases and, uh, the nouns change all the time.

Ana Denis [00:16:52]:
Whenever you have to translate a sentence in your head, in, in English, you just say dog. And, and in Russia you would say that like doga, dogi, dogi, dogey. dogu, and you have to learn all that. I mean, I admire people who learn different languages and I feel that it also gives you some credibility and some appreciation and I truly regret that back then when I was very young and I just started to travel, I was so ashamed, I was so shy, I was so afraid of making a mistake when I speak of not getting this, the, the tenses right, or, or not remembering the right word. And then it really doesn't matter. It's, it's just the attempt. And whenever you forget the right word, you can explain it. Even, even if you are speaking at the A2 level, you can show it with your hands at least.

Tim Newman [00:17:54]:
Right.

Ana Denis [00:17:54]:
And it will be all right because people understand. Right? It's not your, it's not your first language. You don't have to have a, you don't have to be super fluent in it.

Tim Newman [00:18:06]:
What's the biggest lie people believe about what a confident speaker looks like?

Ana Denis [00:18:11]:
Uh, about the confident?

Tim Newman [00:18:14]:
Mm-hmm.

Ana Denis [00:18:16]:
I feel like, um, I primarily work with women and a lot of women are asking me like, how do I become more confident when, when I speak? That is the challenge that so many women are facing just because, you know, I was giving a workshop this week in a room full of women and I was asking them to raise their hand if they heard anything like, be a good girl or be nice, help other people when they were young.

Tim Newman [00:18:51]:
Yeah.

Ana Denis [00:18:53]:
And almost all of them raised their hands. And these were people from various cultures, like over 20 or even 30 countries. And it was incredible because that's what I see is happening with women. Like whenever we, we are at work or in other professional scenarios, Mm-hmm. we are often not taken seriously because We were taught to be considerate and thoughtful and prioritize harmony and prioritize communication. We don't like conflict. We avoid conflict. But many people, um, see that as a weakness.

Ana Denis [00:19:35]:
And a lot of women then feel that they're not being listened to, they're not being appreciated, and they're not taken seriously. which creates a lot of friction. So many women are asking like, how do I become more confident? Or how do I develop that skill of being pushy and making my point and bulldozing conversations? And I truly believe that that is not the way to do that because—

Tim Newman [00:20:09]:
Right.

Ana Denis [00:20:09]:
We as women, and not only women, it's not like women versus men. I mean, there are, many men who are considerate and who are facing similar challenges. But what we could do is that, well, instead of relying on how you do things and that confidence and that like persona who is confident and pushy, instead of that, you can rely on why you are doing what you're doing.

Tim Newman [00:20:40]:
Right.

Ana Denis [00:20:40]:
I mean, there's something behind your professional expertise, something that motivates you, something that pushes you to stay in that field, in that industry. So hold on to that because this is what will give you confidence. This is what will make you incredible when you're speaking. And if some people don't appreciate that, well, it's their miss because it's, it's also, it's very strong. It's a very strong way of becoming a better speaker and more confident speaker.

Tim Newman [00:21:17]:
Yeah. You said the whole idea of being pushy, that's not the way to connect with people or the way to get your message across. And I think sometimes when we're not taken seriously, we think that's the go-to. Well, I've got to be more assertive and I've got to to talk louder and stronger and start talking over other people because they're overtalking me. But all that diminishes your influence, that diminishes your overall message anyway, because nobody's going to hear that.

Ana Denis [00:21:54]:
Exactly. Exactly. It only speaks to your inability to control your emotions whenever you have to raise your voice or you feel that you need to become louder so that people listen, um, it really doesn't give you any authority or assertiveness. Um, well, I need to add that in some cultures, that is the way of doing things, though, but, but perhaps generally, it's, it's not the rule of becoming a, a confident speaker, definitely.

Tim Newman [00:22:27]:
Right, right. Well, not, not only confident, but, but influential, right? Because when we speak, we're trying to influence, we're trying to educate, we're trying to influence other people. And when we get louder or when we get more pushy or we start using certain terms, the first thing that most people do is they shut that down, they shut it off, and they actually stop listening. And you don't build that That connection or that influence.

Ana Denis [00:23:00]:
Yeah, yeah, true. You should always be aware of how you come across and in conversations and as a speaker. That's what I also really emphasize every time I'm giving a workshop or working with people, like connect with your superpowers because if you connect with your superpowers, you won't need any confidence. I mean, confidence is just a mix of different qualities and circumstances as well that truly, that is hard to repeat. I mean, what is confidence? How do you build confidence? You build confidence by doing things, by being in the process, by investing hours. By doing things, right. But again, there is a bit of a cultural collision. Like, comparing cultures is one of my favorite topics because in some cultures, being assertive means just proceeding with your decision without consulting everyone, anyone.

Ana Denis [00:24:10]:
And in other cultures, like in the Netherlands, you have to reach a consensus and you don't really pay attention to titles or how senior your colleagues are. you have to reach a consensus within a team. And it doesn't matter whether you are the CEO or you are the junior assistant. And it's beautiful.

Tim Newman [00:24:33]:
That's a different way of looking at things, especially from an American's perspective. The CEO is the one that makes— it doesn't really matter. They're the person that's going to make that decision, even if everybody else thinks it's a bad decision or the data says it's not a good decision, they're going to do whatever it is that they want or think is what's best anyway. So that's a different, definitely a different way of approaching things. And I think probably at times, probably a much better way of approaching things.

Ana Denis [00:25:10]:
Yeah, I can totally relate to that because in Russia it's the same. You just accept the decisions made by top management and you don't have a voice. And that is also another reason why I'm so passionate about public speaking and speaking up as well and growing voices. That's what we do at TEDx because when I've kind of seen the consequences of not using your voice and not using your voice at the right time. So it's, it's a very, it's a deeply personal mission that, uh, I'm, I'm carrying, uh, now, um, to, to, to get this message across. Like, whenever you're speaking up, it matters.

Tim Newman [00:25:59]:
So if, if, if you feel comfortable, talk about that idea of, of what you just mentioned. Um, of not using your voice and your story from that perspective?

Ana Denis [00:26:12]:
So I guess there are several aspects to that. For example, when I was growing up, and that circles back to the messages that we hear as women when we grow up. So when I was growing up, my grandmother used to tell me, so In Russian, the pronoun I is also one letter and it's the last letter of the alphabet. So the saying was like, I is the last letter of the alphabet, which makes sense in Russian. But what I, well, she was trying to protect me and that was to the idea of being considerate and hearing from others. But what I heard as a child, and I was really shy, I was like, I was scared of people. My best friends were books. I was a nerd.

Ana Denis [00:27:04]:
I was the nerd reading books back then. And what I heard was that your needs come last.

Tim Newman [00:27:12]:
Comes last, yeah.

Ana Denis [00:27:13]:
You are not a priority for no one. And I kind of, I used to hear the same message over and over again from different people. And that is, I felt like that was the way of living for lots of us, that we just accept, we never question the decision of a superior, both in organizations and generally in the country. So that is something that will only get you in trouble.

Tim Newman [00:27:46]:
Mm-hmm.

Ana Denis [00:27:47]:
So you will never win. You can never achieve anything by just not agreeing or questioning the the standard way of doing things. And I never loved that philosophy because how can you improve anything without looking at it, without questioning it a little bit? For sure, right. Not because you are against it or you are, yeah, just a crazy person questioning everything, but it's impossible to make anything better, any process, whether in company or in a country without without having a discussion, without having a conversation, like what's good and what we could improve in the future.

Tim Newman [00:28:32]:
Right.

Ana Denis [00:28:33]:
So, yeah, I kind of felt that that was also part of my corporate journey because when I was a young ambitious girl in a company, and of course I had so many ideas as every young person, Walking into the corporate desk. But then these ideas were not accepted because that was not the way of doing things because that wasn't how the responsibilities between several different departments were distributed and aligned. And I quickly realized that, well, the only position that when you are allowed to make your own call and make your own decisions is just being independent and being a business owner. Having said that, it is not true that you are entirely free. You are never entirely free.

Tim Newman [00:29:29]:
You're never free, right?

Ana Denis [00:29:30]:
You are like a business— when you're a business owner, you are working with customers and you are even more, you have to listen to everyone and you have to adjust whatever you're doing based on the feedback that you're getting. But then again, you have a freedom to choose what you care about, what you do, and effectively be— yeah, you have the opportunity to be a change that you want to see in the world.

Tim Newman [00:30:03]:
It seems, and that, your story, as I listen to it, it seems that from a societal perspective, we do that That's not an uncommon type of thing. I've got a granddaughter. She'll be 6 here in a couple weeks. And this past summer, the whole family got together, my 2 daughters, their families, and we're staying in the house and it's time to clean up and go home. And I'm laying on the floor playing with her and her little brother, and my wife and I are teasing each other, and she gives me the shush.

Ana Denis [00:30:38]:
Shush.

Tim Newman [00:30:39]:
And she's 5. My granddaughter stands up and says, don't you shush pops like that. And it triggered a thought in my head. We condition people as they get older to suppress their thoughts, to suppress the things that they're saying. And she's 5, and I'm thinking, by the time she's 11, she's going to stop speaking up. She's going to stop saying the things that her thoughts— and obviously we've got to teach them, you don't just say everything that's in your head, but there's a way to express your thoughts. And we as a society as a whole, I think we do the exact opposite. Instead of sharing your thoughts and asking the questions like you're talking about, Don't bother.

Tim Newman [00:31:32]:
Just bury it deep down inside. Keep it to yourself. Nobody really cares. Nobody cares what you think. And we do everybody a disservice. Like you said, how do we get better? How do we improve processes? How do we learn about other people? How do we learn about other cultures? How do we learn about everything if we're taught to keep our thoughts bottled up and buried deep down inside?

Ana Denis [00:31:54]:
Exactly. While I was listening to you, I had 2 insights and 2 thoughts that I would love to share. So the first one is I'm currently going through a cross-cultural communication course. And what I learned there is that 70% of the world, of the countries of the world, are more inclined to be hierarchical and authoritarian. So that's kind of a dominant structure when it comes to so many parts of the world that are miles away from one another. That's interesting. And another thing that I wanted to add is that sometimes you can probably take a different perspective when you see the consequences. And my perspective of speaking up or not, whether I speak up, really changed after we had a a situation in one of the projects I was involved in.

Ana Denis [00:33:04]:
So, the situation was we had a leader who used to message our volunteers. It was a nonprofit. He used to message our volunteers during non-working hours.

Tim Newman [00:33:21]:
Hmm.

Ana Denis [00:33:21]:
And it wasn't a problem for anyone because everyone's volunteer and everyone was clearly passionate about our mission and what we were doing. But then again, in the Netherlands, that is not common, and people usually don't do that. And the manager was from another culture. He was from China. So yeah, we were just a group of expats from all over the world.

Tim Newman [00:33:48]:
Mm-hmm.

Ana Denis [00:33:49]:
So we kind of learned to listen to one another and how to collaborate because everyone's perception of what good— what a good workflow is, is different.

Tim Newman [00:33:59]:
Right.

Ana Denis [00:33:59]:
So, so he was messaging outside the working hours and, uh, then, um, one of like another volunteer, um, she was my friend. Um, we were discussing this and she said like, it makes me so angry. I can't believe that he's doing that. He's so authoritative. And, and so like, he's like, Like Hitler, all this.

Tim Newman [00:34:28]:
Right.

Ana Denis [00:34:30]:
And I was laughing at it, but back then I had this idea, like, why don't you talk to one another? Why don't you just say it out loud? If you are a volunteer, you are not obliged to stay there if it makes you uncomfortable, and people can always talk, right?

Tim Newman [00:34:49]:
Right.

Ana Denis [00:34:50]:
If there is someone, something that offends you or makes you feel uncomfortable, you could just say that and we could fix that because there was no interpersonal conflict between them. It was just about the means of how we communicate, when we communicate, when we are sending messages and those unspoken rules. So eventually she left and, but she didn't leave because she wanted to. She left because at some point there was an explosion. She was accumulating that discontent and energy and anger. And at some point she just exploded and she left the team. And it was really weird because there was no valid reason for her to leave. So she basically said, I want to leave today and you will not see me ever.

Ana Denis [00:35:41]:
And it was so strange and it got me thinking like, But we are people. We have words. We can communicate with each other. If you are not happy, I mean, no one wants to keep an unhappy person on a team of volunteers.

Tim Newman [00:35:58]:
Right.

Ana Denis [00:35:59]:
You can just say, or if you don't like how someone communicates with you or reacts to whatever you are doing, you can always say that without making, without creating a conflict.

Tim Newman [00:36:12]:
Yeah.

Ana Denis [00:36:12]:
It is possible when you just say, people, look, well, my non-working hours are important to me. That is the time that I spend with the family. I tend to spend Saturdays and Sundays away from my phone because I really need this in order to rest. So, if we could just agree on the fact that you are not messaging me outside of working hours, I'd be happy to stay on the team. And it's as easy as that. But when I saw this situation, I realized that— and both of them, I love both of them. They're both wonderful people. It's just at some point, something happened.

Ana Denis [00:36:54]:
They misunderstood each other's intentions. They misread the room. And then everything fell apart. And we could happily continue the project without this kind of conflict and without losing that member of the team.

Tim Newman [00:37:10]:
Right. And we're having some of that same dynamics in intergenerational communication right now. When you talk about the Gen Zs, the 18 to 30-year-olds with the Gen Xs and boomer generations of the world, the way we communicate and the way we value work and those types of things. And there isn't any of that communication either. For example, just in that scenario that you gave, that could have been solved in a really quick 5-minute conversation. Like you said, when I'm not at work, I value that time. If you want to message me, that's fine. I won't respond to it, or please don't message me.

Tim Newman [00:38:02]:
I'll respond to it when I get to work on Monday or when I come in tomorrow or whenever it is. And then both parties come to an understanding. But it goes back to what you said. There's no conversation. There's no open dialogue. There's no even really an attempt to understand a different perspective.

Ana Denis [00:38:25]:
Right.

Tim Newman [00:38:26]:
That to me is is part of the biggest issue. There's no attempt.

Ana Denis [00:38:31]:
Yeah, there's no attempt. And what happens instead very often is that you accumulate that passive-aggressive attitude. And then you just carry that anger and discontent within you without saying a word. And then another person has no idea that their actions or words are disturbing you that much and to that extent. And then it will only grow bigger. It will blow up. It will blow up at some point. You know, Dutch, Dutch people are praised for, they are known for being direct.

Ana Denis [00:39:06]:
And what that means is that they might not be nice to you. They might tell you whatever they think. And at first that was a little bit weird because that is not in my home culture either. We are not direct at all. And we are, yeah, we are pretty much keeping that passive-aggressive attitude. attitude towards everyone who's on top of us. But then again, when I communicated with other people here in the Netherlands, I realized that, yeah, probably this approach is even, is much better because you can discuss all the issues and sort out everything without carrying that that shitload of emotions with you. And then you just move on.

Ana Denis [00:40:00]:
You move on to your duties and you are able to keep the relationships with other people, with your team, with your coworkers.

Tim Newman [00:40:07]:
Yeah, because the relationships are what's most important of everything that we do anyway. It doesn't matter what project it is or what business it is or whatever it is. It's always about the people. It's always about those relationships. and those connections. And when you lose sight and focus of that, that's when things fall apart. Because if you have those relationships and you have those connections, everything may not necessarily work out the way you thought they would, but everything's going to be, everything's going to work out.

Ana Denis [00:40:37]:
Yeah. What I realized, what I've come to realize with age is that when I was young, I pretty much You know, I was studying at a university and I was looking at everyone based on their grades, like these people are doing great and these people, well, they're not so great. And what I didn't realize at that point is that in 10 years, in 20 years, everything will change. I mean, these people will be working in all kinds of organizations and it will be truly fascinating to talk to them. So, that is the power of relationships. When you are able to keep that network and when you're able to build long-term relationships with people, then it will, it will, you will reap the rewards at some point for sure, because I think that is one skill that everyone would truly benefit from. And that is, well, most people lack right now because of the social media, because of how—

Tim Newman [00:41:40]:
Yeah.

Ana Denis [00:41:40]:
involved we are in building that online persona that is successful and that is doing well. And all it does, it actually prevents people from connecting to one another because whenever you log in, you see that everyone's successful and you are sitting in your room with an amazing big deal of problems and you have no idea how to solve them.

Tim Newman [00:42:06]:
Yeah. So let me ask you something, maybe a bit off topic. In Netherlands, what's the culture like in terms of disagreeing? So like here in the United States right now, if you're one side or the other, there's no in-between, there's no discussion, there's no nuance, there's no— you're either here or you're here. And what, what, what's that like in, in the Netherlands? And, and is there any, any middle ground?

Ana Denis [00:42:40]:
There's definitely some middle ground, and that is the reason why they have, oh my God, I'm, I'm ashamed to not remember the number, but there is a wide array of political parties. There are like either 30 or 60. So there's definitely some middle ground. And the culture is built around consensus. Whenever we are standing on different sides and don't see each other eye to eye, then we can reach an agreement. And we have to find that middle ground, actually.

Tim Newman [00:43:16]:
Right.

Ana Denis [00:43:16]:
So, we have to stay in the room until we figure out the solution.

Tim Newman [00:43:20]:
Right.

Ana Denis [00:43:20]:
And if we don't figure it out, then we will have another meeting where we will meet one another and well, we'll try to come up with a solution. And that's really, really interesting because that was foreign to me, but it was something that I definitely appreciate very, very much. So I lacked that for the biggest part of my life. I definitely lacked that. So I appreciate this kind of a discussion. And openness.

Tim Newman [00:43:55]:
Right.

Ana Denis [00:43:55]:
Because I think one of the distinct features of this culture is that this culture is very open. And that is, that is a gift to everyone who's living in the Netherlands because like in The Hague, for instance, 10% of the population are expats, migrants coming from all over the world. And still they somehow fall in love with the culture and follow the rules and everyone leaves peacefully.

Tim Newman [00:44:28]:
It must be nice. Although I do have to say, it's just like anywhere else. I think what we see on the news maybe doesn't necessarily really represent what's actually happening. But on the other hand, I will say that there is definitely something to the whole idea that we're so binary right now. And I talk a lot about we may agree on 80% of issues, things, whatever it is, but we've so focused on the 20% or the 15% that we disagree on. Yeah. And demonize people on that 20% to 15% that we disagree on, as opposed to embracing and celebrating the 80% that we do agree on and build consensus from that perspective and try and make the other 15% to 20% better based on the 80% that we actually agree on.

Ana Denis [00:45:34]:
Yeah, true. I think one of the biggest problems in communication is labels.

Tim Newman [00:45:40]:
Yeah.

Ana Denis [00:45:40]:
Because once we know the labels we stand for, we label ourselves. Like, I am a woman. Well, that obviously is hard to change, but I'm Russian or I'm an American, I'm a Republican or I'm a Democrat. Once you have this label, it's very hard to get rid of it. And you start to also see other people under the influence of these labels. So I feel that at some point you stop asking questions, you stop to be really interested in a person's opinion.

Tim Newman [00:46:17]:
Yes.

Ana Denis [00:46:18]:
And you are just speaking to a stereotype or a label without really listening to what the person has to say. And then you go like, yeah, I know what you will say. I know everything, so you don't need to repeat it. I've heard it. And that's where the diffraction starts. So active listening and just interest in other people. I know it's hard to reach. I'm not delusional.

Ana Denis [00:46:46]:
I've seen that happening to some people in my country and here as well. But I do believe that we all have the power of just dropping the labels, both for ourselves and for others. And just instead of talking to a label, just inquire about the real opinion of a human being. Yeah.

Tim Newman [00:47:16]:
Because that's— and I think that really what you just said really encapsulates everything because that's really it because we're all humans and just trying to get an understanding of of where that is. And it's, I don't know, it's infuriating sometimes.

Ana Denis [00:47:37]:
Yeah, it's interesting how it unfolds in the world. But so far, maybe I've been lucky, but everyone here, like people who surround me, and again, they come from very different backgrounds. Maybe because they were, they are expats, they are looking for that sense of belonging.

Tim Newman [00:48:03]:
Belonging, yeah.

Ana Denis [00:48:04]:
So like people are not interested in seeing, in looking into our differences. They're looking forward pretty much to finding what unites us because every person living in a country that is different from their home country, is looking for that new family.

Tim Newman [00:48:23]:
Yes.

Ana Denis [00:48:23]:
And then we have to build that new family. And when you go to a networking event with that idea, although you might not consciously realize it or like say out loud, yeah, I'm here to build my new family, but you kind of, you have that energy of connecting, of being curious, of getting to know each other. And it's really easy that way. So I found quickly a lot of communities that I feel I belong to and the people out there are amazing. I'm having such a great time getting to know them better and communicating and yeah, and probably the Netherlands was indeed the right country for me.

Tim Newman [00:49:08]:
So this may be a strange question too. Between you and your husband, Did one of you assimilate quicker or easier than the other one?

Ana Denis [00:49:19]:
No, it's actually a great question. I think we were doing that in parallel. So our processes were a little bit different because at some point we decided that he will get a job and I was helping him to apply and to write like cover letters, resumes, and then all of that. And then he got a job and at the same time, I was finding a few communities that I was really interested in, like TEDx, for example. So, it was really in parallel. We just took different routes. He integrated via getting a job and finding his new colleagues, and I integrated via connecting with communities. Because we, we came here as entrepreneurs and, uh, it was so challenging for, for the time being to consciously rebuild your network from scratch when you don't know anyone.

Ana Denis [00:50:21]:
It's, it was really scary.

Tim Newman [00:50:24]:
But you took the step and you did it and you're successful. And I think that's the message. If you never took the step, if you hesitated, if you said, oh, we can't do it, you would never know. And that to me is the whole idea of taking action. Nothing happens until you do something, right? And so the whole idea of putting yourself out there and trusting yourself and actually doing it, That's, that's the real key. That's what starts to build the confidence.

Ana Denis [00:51:03]:
One idea I find fascinating is just, you know, letting go of your ego.

Tim Newman [00:51:09]:
Yeah.

Ana Denis [00:51:09]:
Because when you are switching countries midlife and you have to start basically a new life when you are 35, 40, 45, it is not easy because, uh, you've built a successful career back, like in your home country. And then you have this idea of yourself as being like independent and capable and then you don't need anyone's help. And then you're in a new country where you don't know anything, like how to ride the transport or how to hand in your tax declaration. And every single issue becomes a problem. And the most helpful part and the most valuable part for me personally was to let go of this ego and become a professional idiot.

Tim Newman [00:52:07]:
I love that.

Ana Denis [00:52:07]:
Just admitting that I don't know anything. I don't know how to talk to people. I don't know how to communicate. So, I should really just listen a lot, ask a lot of questions, and being interested in people. That's the only one skill I have.

Tim Newman [00:52:23]:
That's it.

Ana Denis [00:52:25]:
And yeah, my background is in journalism. So, one thing I enjoy doing, and I do that really well, is asking questions. So, I was trying to talk to as many people as possible, and I also wrote a book just based on that very skill because I wanted to switch. my career, but I had no idea about the possible way and how to proceed. And then I just started to talk to people, having interviews and listening to their stories and what they did and what worked for them. And every interaction, every interview brought some kind of an insight. And I was like, yeah, I could really try that. that was a great idea.

Ana Denis [00:53:15]:
And then I was just bringing all of these ideas together, testing them one by one, and eventually it worked. But I believe the biggest glue of everything was that connection, human connection, because especially in a small country like the Netherlands, you really they don't rely on digital presence. They don't believe in personal branding or like you might have a personal brand, but that is secondary. The primary thing is you have to be a person. People have to know you to trust you because it's eventually about building trust.

Tim Newman [00:53:58]:
Yes.

Ana Denis [00:53:59]:
Much like in sales, like when you're building a business, you need to establish trust with your target audience and when you are in a new country and you're building your Life, it's just the same process.

Tim Newman [00:54:10]:
Yeah. And you said a number of things that just really resonate. Stop trying to be interesting and be interested. Ask questions. Listen. You know, all those things that, you know, as communication coaches, we talk about all the time. And it's not just— it's not just talk. That's what actually— it's what actually works.

Tim Newman [00:54:30]:
That's what actually builds those connections. It's what builds the relationships. And And you doing it, going from one culture to another and helping others do that, it's just absolutely amazing. So someone who's ready to stop playing small and actually reinvent how they show up, where can they find you and take that next step?

Ana Denis [00:54:55]:
There's my website that you have to visit. It's annadennis.com. My book Reinvento is available on Amazon. You might check this one out. And there's also the website of our, the Reinvento Club in case you want to develop your communication skills or looking to rebuild your life in a new country, then visit reinventoclub.com.

Tim Newman [00:55:20]:
Anna, thank you so much. Now I'll make sure I put those, those links in the show notes for everybody. I really appreciate you coming to spend some time with us today. You've given us all kinds of of really good information, and I can't tell you how much I appreciate that.

Ana Denis [00:55:33]:
Thank you so much. I, I was thrilled to be here. Thank you, Tim.

Tim Newman [00:55:36]:
All right, take care. I'll talk to you soon.

Ana Denis [00:55:38]:
Take care.

Tim Newman [00:55:40]:
Be sure to visit speakingwithconfidencepodcast.com to get your free ebook, Top 21 Challenges for Public Speakers and How to Overcome Them. You can also register for the Forming for Public Speaking course. Always remember, your voice has the power to change the world. We'll talk to you next time. Take care.