Welcome back to Speaking with Confidence, the podcast that’s here to help you unlock the power of effective public speaking. Today, we have the incredible Roberta Ndlela as our guest. With 15 years of corporate business experience in South Africa, Roberta shares her journey and the invaluable lessons she has learned about communication, leadership, and embracing imperfection.
In this episode, we’ll dive into the Emotional Freedom Technique (EFT) and the importance of considering others’ perspectives. We’ll also explore the shift from one-way communication to a more inclusive approach in marketing, leadership, and personal relationships. Roberta’s insights from hosting over 200 podcast episodes shed light on the power of storytelling, authenticity, and the need for human connection.
Tim and Roberta discuss the crucial role of soft skills, the impact of technology on communication, and the challenges of bridging the gap between young professionals and corporate formality. Roberta also opens up about navigating cultural differences and language barriers in the workplace and the significance of understanding others’ perspectives to resolve conflicts.
Join us as we uncover actionable advice for effective communication, share humorous anecdotes, and emphasize the Platinum Rule—communicating with people the way they prefer. Whether you’re looking to improve your public speaking skills, enhance your leadership, or build better relationships, this episode is packed with insights you won’t want to miss. Tune in and start your journey toward speaking with confidence!
Key Takeaways:
1. Ask and Listen: Always ask questions and listen to the individual’s needs before offering help or solutions. This principle is vital in personal relationships, business communication, and customer service.
2. Embrace Imperfection: Making mistakes is part of the communication journey. Authenticity and sincerity can often leave a more lasting impact than flawlessness in public speaking.
3. Importance of Soft Skills: Soft skills such as empathy, listening, and adaptability are crucial in managing a diversified workforce and enhancing team dynamics in various professional settings.
4. Platinum Rule in Communication: Communicate with others as they wish to be communicated with, rather than adopting a one-size-fits-all approach. This tailored communication fosters better relationships and understanding.
5. Bridging Generational Gaps: Leaders should be open to innovative ideas from young professionals and consider having young mentors. This mutual exchange can mitigate the challenges posed by the intersection of casual and formal communication styles in the workplace.
About Roberta Ndlela
I spent 15 years in corporate South Africa mostly in the engineering sector and noticed how the lack of soft skills programs in college/university does a disservice to professionals when they enter the workforce. Having interviewed over 200 Leadership experts on the Speaking and Communicating Podcast for almost 3 years, leadership as we know it is being turned on its head. It’s no longer business as usual.
Transcript
Tim Newman:
Welcome to Speaking with Confidence, a podcast that’s here to help you unlock the power of effective public speaking. I’m your host, tim Newman, and I’m excited to take you on a journey to become a better public speaker. If you are like most people, just the thought of speaking in front of a crowd or talking during an important meeting can trigger all kinds of anxiety. Trust me, I know what that’s like. I gave my first speech as a senior in college. I was so nervous that as soon as I got to the front of the room and opened my mouth to speak, I threw up. I have learned a lot since then and I’m here to help others overcome their fear of messing up or sounding stupid.
Tim Newman:
This episode of the Speaking with Confidence podcast features a conversation with Roberta Ndela about communication, leadership and the role of soft skills in today’s society. She’s conducted more than 200 interviews over the past three years for her own podcast, the Speaking and Communication podcast. Thankfully, roberta generously shares some of the knowledge, insights and resources that she’s amassed. Hear about the nuances of body language, growing up in South Africa during apartheid, the role of asking questions as part of one’s leadership style and the difference between the golden rule and the platinum rule. Learn about the very powerful life lessons she walked away with after working with her younger brother during a tapping session. Get the details about an exercise she recommends debunking the idea that you must be perfect to deliver a flawless presentation. Don’t let the informal conversational tone of the episode fool you. It is chock full of suggestions, exercises and important things to consider as you continue your path to becoming a Confidence Speaker. So sit back and enjoy listening to Roberta on this episode of the Speaking with Confidence podcast.
Tim Newman:
All right, so let’s welcome our next guest, and you know as we go into this, understand. I’ve been waiting to have this conversation with her for probably two months. I’m so excited to bring her in. She’s been about 15 years in corporate business in South Africa. She mostly worked in the engineering sector. One thing she noticed was a lack of soft skills programs in college and universities and really what a disservice that does to professionals when they enter the workforce. She has her own podcast. She’s interviewed over 200 leadership experts on the Speaking and Communicating Podcasts in three years. We know for a fact that leadership has been turned on its head since COVID and it’s no longer business as usual. So please, please, welcome my good friend Roberta Ndela, did I say it right?
Roberta Ndlela:
Ndela yes, you did. Thank you Tim.
Tim Newman:
Yes, Thanks so much for joining us.
Roberta Ndlela:
I’m so glad to be here. Thanks for inviting me to be part of your show. Hi, to the listeners as well.
Tim Newman:
Well, you know, I know I told you this, but again, I’m so excited to have you. When we first connected, you know, a couple of months ago, that connection to me was, it felt instantaneously, even though we did it by Zoom. Actually, the first communication was through LinkedIn, through a little chat feature, and then, when we connected on Zoom, I kind of felt like I’ve known you for forever, almost instantly.
Roberta Ndlela:
Same here, and here’s why Because you and I focus so much on communication skills.
Roberta Ndlela:
I could pick up, first of all, even before the Zoom meeting, on our chats, that you are genuine, because everybody picks this up, whether they notice it or not, first of all, even before the Zoom meeting, on our chats, that you are genuine, because everybody picks this up, whether they notice it or not.
Roberta Ndlela:
Everybody’s able to pick up whether the person is genuine, whether, especially with LinkedIn, are they just trying to sell me something, pretending to be my friend, or I could pick that up. I could pick up the energy of being sincere and the way you communicate and the way you addressed me and the way that you as they say in America came at me. That’s when I said OK, I’d like to have a conversation with him on Zoom. He’s a podcaster, he focuses on communications as well, but more than anything, you embodied the fact that you do focus on communication skills and that’s how you are, even in your interaction with others, and that’s why I think we were able to connect as well you know, and I’m glad you said that because you know we also have two other people that are in common and I just kind of what my own says, no is I just kind of found you.
Tim Newman:
I don’t even know how that happened, except for you know LinkedIn’s algorithm. You know that there’s even know how that happened, except for you know LinkedIn’s algorithm. You know those, you know the, the guys that are, you know well, you know play with us. But we have two people in common Drew Jackson kind of the same, the same vibe with him and Tyler Foley. A lot of the the same feelings I had with you that I had with Sam and the connections that we made. And you’re absolutely right, interpersonal communication verbal and you know when you see each other on camera or in person is one thing, but you can still pick up some of those things in a written form. If we focus on some of the soft skills, such as writing, you know, a lot of times we focus so much on when texting and brief emails and that doesn’t. Things don’t really come across. People don’t necessarily receive that message in the same way if we’re not presenting it in a good way.
Roberta Ndlela:
Let’s just put it that way so much does get lost in translation. Let’s be honest, no matter how, it’s always best to communicate as best as you can to be clear, to be, as I said, sincere in your message and as clear as you can be. But, yes, things do get lost in translation. Hence then, when we transfer to the Zoom screen, you study the body language, the eye contact and just the general energy around the conversation with that person. And speaking of those two gentlemen that you mentioned, drew T Jackson and Tyler Foley, they are some of my guests.
Roberta Ndlela:
Like I said, I’ve interviewed over 200 communication experts, and leadership experts are some of the few ones that we’ve continued to have relationship building over time, because some people will just use you as a launchpad to promote their coaching business and they disappear. You never even hear from them on LinkedIn anymore, but they are some of what I consider very good associates, in the sense that even if tomorrow, we’re to email Tyler something about speaking, something about communication, he’ll respond. You know you can have potential future collaborations with those kinds of people, because that’s just naturally who you are and maybe that’s why we also have them as connections in common as well, because that’s the kind of people that they are yeah, and it’s.
Tim Newman:
It’s good to know that that it’s not just, you know, one, two people, right, it’s that, that’s that feeling and that vibe goes out and other people see it. It’s that’s right. It’s not. They’re not trying to sell me something. I’m not trying to sell them something.
Tim Newman:
Everybody gets those linkedin messages, right, you know yeah I’ll open them up, I’ll look at them and I’ll say no, it’s really not what I’m about, but it happens. You’re from South Africa, so give us a little bit about your background and what led you to become the thought leader that you are in terms of soft skills and communication.
Roberta Ndlela:
Yes, I’m South African. I’m 48. So this is 2024. My country became democratic in 1994. So for the first 18 years of my life I lived under the apartheid system, if you guys have heard the word before, and literally what that means was we were all divided according to four races. We were complete strangers to each other based on race.
Roberta Ndlela:
I remember my first job. It was literally my first interaction with white people in the same space, because before it was illegal, and that alone is a major cultural shift even for them, because when I was transferred, about two years after I started my job, I was transferred to the head office. Now most of my countries run in English, but the capital city, pretoria, is run in Afrikaans, the Dutch language, and the Pretoria office, the head office, because Afrikaans is dominant where I come from. I only learned it at school and I didn’t like it, so I’m not fluent at all. I get there my first meeting ever. They spoke Afrikaans the entire time our project meeting. I had no idea what they were saying, tim, I had no idea that when I stand up, go back to my cubicle. What am I supposed to do again? It was so strange. But also, if anybody listening would think how could they do that to her? Remember, they’ve been doing this all their lives. They can’t suddenly switch off and say, oh, she’s here now, let’s switch off to English. It was an adjustment for everybody.
Roberta Ndlela:
So, and then I worked in the engineering sector. Engineers are known for being introverted, smart, brilliant, but just loners. They just work alone. But here’s the thing. So when my country was, it was changing. During that time you had new government officials who used to fight the apartheid system and now they’re running the government. We were consultants for them. We were redirecting. We’re now trying to reunite this very divided South Africa.
Roberta Ndlela:
So there’s a lot of consulting work involved. We worked in transportation, we worked in engineering, because even our transportation systems were divided and I started to notice. So first of all, you have government bidding jobs, government contracts, which I think you have similar style here in America, where the engineering companies bid for jobs. But I started to notice that sometimes there comes a time when, if we’ve worked with a government official and my boss at the time, johan, he’s very good with people there comes a time when we don’t even bid for jobs. That same government official will give us the next consulting job. Do you know why? Why? Because politicians require a lot of patience. Maybe american politicians are good, but the african ones require a lot of patience oh, I don’t want to go down that road let’s not go down the road.
Roberta Ndlela:
So he used to be very good with people and I remember one time we were stuck in traffic and I’m still a junior and he said to me Roberta, I went to study engineering so I can sit in my desk and do my job and talk to no one. Now all I do is talk to people all day and not do my job, which was my first introduction to what leadership is. Leadership is not you doing the actual day-to-day job, you project manage those who do the job. And when working on a project team, we’ll have other companies join venture with us, or an environmental firm, an urban planning firm, and to manage such different variety of experts and professionals and, oh, sometimes you’ve got lawyers. We’re not going to talk about that.
Roberta Ndlela:
But what I’m saying is, when you are managing a project team that is so varied, there’s a whole other level of skill that you need people skills that you need to have, which you now call soft skills. Simon Sinek calls them human-centered skills, because it’s a whole lot of moving parts while managing the client, because if we are assigned the job, the client wants to hear from us only on what’s happening. They’re not going to hear from all these people. There’s a chain of command in communication. You start to notice those things and the reason I keep saying that university and college does not teach that you will literally have these culture shocks when you enter the workplace.
Tim Newman:
Yes, absolutely. So how did you navigate the whole language barrier thing? I’m a pretty flexible person and I can work around a lot of things, but if I can’t understand what you’re saying and you can’t understand what I’m saying, that to me is almost a deal breaker. I mean, how did you work around that?
Roberta Ndlela:
Okay is almost a deal breaker. I mean, how did you work around that? Okay, just for the benefit of the listeners, they do speak English. The Pretorian police, they speak English. It’s just that Afrikaans is kind of the first language, but everybody speaks English. My country is run in English, so it was just comfortable for them all along, because it was just them Afrikaners in the division, so I’m the first one who looks like me entering the division. You couldn’t.
Roberta Ndlela:
What I was trying to illustrate is that on the first day, if you’ve been doing something for 10 years, tim, and something changes on day one, it’s not easy to just immediately switch off and be somebody right. Does that make sense? Yeah, so, even for them. So my boss, he came to me, said okay, roberta, did you understand? I said Johan, I’m from Durban, we never speak Afrikaans. After that, then they became alert and cognizant of the fact that if I’m in the meeting, they need to switch to English, especially if it’s something that I need to understand and be involved in as well. But yes, they speak. Both South Africans are multilingual, yeah.
Tim Newman:
It’s mainly us Americans that really aren’t, more often than not, right, I mean, but at least there was that and you could work around that. But take that as a for example. Sometimes we do think that we’re actually we may be speaking the same language, but sometimes, the way we come about things, we sometimes feel like we’re not speaking the same language. You know, you’re saying this and I’m saying this, and and there’s that, there’s that big disconnect and it goes back to I think you know, some of the things that you and I have talked about in the past, about taking that ego, putting it aside and actually being open to listening to what the other person is saying putting them aside and actually being open to listening to what the other person is saying.
Roberta Ndlela:
It’s very important because the ego has done a lot of damage, so to speak. It has its place, but I think it does a lot of damage when it comes to the things it says. The inner voice the ego sometimes tends to create or make up a horror story about the situation. Ego sometimes tends to create or make up a horror story about the situation, like, as I just mentioned, with this incident with Afrikaans. If you are listening, you think, oh my goodness, they spoke Kalanga. She didn’t understand how could they? And blow a gasket.
Roberta Ndlela:
But if you now understand the full picture, if you know the backstory, the ego will feed a horror story of they were trying to make me not do my job, say they could fire me and whatnot. But if you understand the full picture, put the ego aside, learn to listen and, as I said, look at it from their perspective too. They had never had somebody different in their project team before. Sometimes we are very quick to come to very harsh judgments and conclusions, but I find that if you take just one second to think, wait a minute, from that person’s perspective, why would they do that. But we are very quick to be victims and tell our stories and communicate within ourselves whatever horror story we want to go with, so that we’re the victim, so that somebody feels sorry for us, so that we blame and point fingers and say, yeah, our team is really bad.
Tim Newman:
And post it on social media. Post it on Twitter and Facebook.
Roberta Ndlela:
Oh no, If you’ve been there and if you’re brave enough to read comments on social media, good luck with that. Yes, so that’s how a lot of people are not able to. That’s why we talk about communication skills, because, if I can take the time to listen to what the other person say and try to understand why they say that because listening is two parts is listening to what they just said and then try to go a level deeper and say, huh, let’s peel one more layer of this onion. Why would they say that? Let me try and understand them as a person and how saying something like that came about. Or even ask and say, huh, this is interesting. Why would you say that? Help me understand where you’re coming from with that thought process.
Tim Newman:
Yes, take this a step further. You had an interaction that you shared in one of your first podcast episodes with your brother, where there was a miscommunication with him and that kind of changed how you went about communicating with him. Can you share that with us?
Roberta Ndlela:
Oh, thank you for that. Thanks for listening to that episode, tim. Yes, so I have a baby brother who was born when I was 23. So I was a full grown adult when he was born. I’m a big sister to everybody. So when you’re a big sister, even though I don’t know, there’s always this thing of you come to everybody’s rescue. You’re always trying to save everybody. I don’t know if that’s the people pleasing part of me, but that’s a whole other psychological debate. So my baby brother I’m 23 years older than him he had had some issues at school and so he was just really sad about it and me trying to be the rescuer. And I remember I had just learned, if anybody’s listening, as is familiar with EFT tapping emotional freedom technique. Have you heard of it, tim? Yeah, yes.
Roberta Ndlela:
So I had just found out about tapping my brother’s in middle school and I said to him hey, wait a minute, come here, sit here, you know what? And I told my mom mom about it. My mom’s excited about everything I bring and you know, because she’s a woman, we get emotional. My brothers are more the logical sides of the family. So my mom said, okay, on this evening, this such and such a date. We’re gonna do tapping. Your big brother needs help. He’s not okay. This thing at school is really bothering him. So I sit down like okay, we’re gonna tap today. Switch off the television. We start tapping. I’m showing them what to do with the face and everything and the fingers and all the things they should say, all the things they should say. I’m not even asking him what he wants to say, I’m just coming. I’m in full rescue mode, okay.
Roberta Ndlela:
So years later I asked him. I said was there a time when you didn’t? I know he loves me say you love each other all the time. Was there a time you didn’t like me? He said, yes, I’m like, oh, this is good. I’m like, no, feel free, you’re not in trouble or anything. Feel free, tell me what happened. He mentioned the incident of tapping. He said as much as I appreciate the fact that you were trying to help me. One, you didn’t ask if I was doing anything to make myself feel better. Two, you didn’t ask me if I want to do the tapping thing which, by the way, I did not. You were just so obsessed with finding a solution and telling me what to do, thinking it’s going to make me better. It actually made me feel worse, not because tapping is a bad thing, but because you didn’t bother to ask me what I thought Powerful, isn’t it Bold Yep? You think you know what’s best. You don’t even bother to ask me what I think about it.
Tim Newman:
And how often do we do that in business?
Roberta Ndlela:
Especially if you’re a leader.
Tim Newman:
All the time. Yeah, and if we are being that way and nobody speaks up, then we wonder why we have high turnover rates or we’re not getting the success or production that we think that we should be getting from our, from our team members. Yeah, I think we really need to to take a step back and and think about that story and how we present ourselves and interact with with everybody.
Roberta Ndlela:
And how often do we do that in sales? Cause we think I know my product is the best thing for you. Oh, please, you need to. You need to buy it. Oh no, I don’t even ask you what your problem is. I don’t even listen to how you articulate your problem, Because even if I think my product is good and it’s going to solve your problem, I can present it in the way that you have said your problem is. But if I don’t even ask you, I’m just going to regurgitate the sales script of what I said, of what was trained, and then say oh, you have to have this, tim, you must buy this. I don’t even bother to ask you what you think, what you are going through and how you see the end result.
Tim Newman:
When I teach marketing, that’s one of the very first things that we talk about the change in the one-way communication 15, 15, 20 years ago to what we have now, and you know, in terms of marketing products and services that people want or need. How do we know what products and services they want or need if we’re not asking them and we’re not listening to them?
Roberta Ndlela:
because remember, now listen, I grew up in the 80s. There was no internet, right, you could convince us to buy your stuff because we hadn’t seen a different one before. Because now, if I Google something, there are a hundred Google suggestions for the exact same thing, so why shouldn’t I buy yours?
Tim Newman:
Exactly, company A is dictating things and company B is talking and communicating and asking questions. You know human behavior is going to naturally go to option B. People don’t like being talked at or directed. They want to feel included. They want to feel part of the solution. They want to be part of the process.
Roberta Ndlela:
If you don’t ask me questions, if you don’t just, if you just dictate to me, what do I? How do I see your communication towards me? You don’t see me. You don’t think I have almost any value or that I have a brain that thinks. So if that’s how I think you perceive me, by not even asking me a question, why should I buy your stuff? Because that’s what I’m telling myself, based on how you treat me. But if you ask me questions, you take the time to say what’s your experience? What do you think I feel like? Oh my goodness, I’m important to this person. Let me hear what they’ve got to sell.
Tim Newman:
From a selling perspective. I think this dynamic has changed a good piece of it, but I do think that there are still some major corporations that are still trying to tell us what we like and what we want as well.
Roberta Ndlela:
I think they’ll always exist.
Roberta Ndlela:
I just disagree. Yeah, I think they’ll always exist. But also back to high turnover. I don’t know if you have the stats with you right now, tim, but when you think about how long, how much companies spend due to high turnover, having to train a new person each time because people are living every three months because of not so great leadership, feeling unseen, being just in this work machines instead of people who work, and things like that, yeah, they spend a lot of money. They lose a lot of money, a lot of money.
Tim Newman:
A lot of money. They lose a lot of money. A lot of money, yep, a lot of money. I look at it from you know, the sport industry. The statistic is something like around it costs like we talk about season ticket sales. Let’s just take baseball, for example. It costs like 60% more to go out and find a new season ticket buyer than it does to renew somebody from the year before.
Roberta Ndlela:
Wow, so you really need to look after your customers.
Tim Newman:
So you know, and so that means maybe you don’t force them into a full. Just take baseball, for example. You got 81 games. You don’t force them into buying a full season package when they can only go to, let’s just say, weekend games.
Roberta Ndlela:
Right.
Tim Newman:
Because they’re going to spend all that money the first year and say, well, I didn’t get the value out of it, so we’re not going to to renew for next year. As opposed to, let’s just say, you know, you’re going to take a weekend package where you get, let’s just say, 30 games. You’re going to go to all 30 games and then next year you’re going to buy the same package. You’re going to go to all 30 games and then next year you’re going to buy the same package 30 games and then maybe next year you may upgrade to a half season package. Now you’re going to get 40 games, 41 games, and go that route. But again, people, organizations, don’t think like that. They just see we’ve got to sell as many tickets as we possibly can, Because from that perspective, once the game is over, you never get that inventory back. But you’re also going to alienate your You’re going to lose your future customers.
Roberta Ndlela:
Yes, here’s the thing. I had a guest on my show the other day who talks about online marketing and he says the thing that we don’t like when we’re on the receiving end of it the messages, the online pitches, the posts, how we are advertising. If you don’t like that, why do you say that to other people? Why do you send those messages? Why do you post the same way? Because you are on the other end of this If you don’t like it, why do you communicate the way you don’t like to be communicated to?
Tim Newman:
I listened to that one as well and I was shaking with it. Yeah, we do that all the time. What was it? I think it was Scott Murray. Scott Murray, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So brings up a good point, very good point. I go back to the whole idea of and I think you said it in there as well it’s the platinum rule, not the golden rule. You know, communicating with people how they want to be communicated with, not the golden rule where treat others how you want to be treated. It’s treat them how they want to be treated.
Roberta Ndlela:
That’s right. Actually, speaking of Drew T Jackson, he first introduced me to the Platinum Rule and that was like, yeah, like you said, the Golden Rule. We’ve grown up with the Golden Rule. A lot of us, whether you’re in Christianity or not, everybody has heard of the Golden Rule, at least. But to introduce me to the Platinum Rule, to say, like I said, treat others or communicate the way they want to be communicated to, because one people decode messages differently and people experience your communication style differently. So you may think, oh, I’m a great communicator. Oh, yeah, I’ve got this. You know, tim, I’m a communications expert. So, whatever I say, you’re going to just send it exactly the way I did. My baby brother made me stop dead in my tracks and go huh, just when I think I’m so good at this, I really suck, because he really doesn’t like me right now, because it’s not about you communicating. How does the other person experience you? Right?
Tim Newman:
And how are they receiving the message? Are they receiving the message that you want them to receive?
Roberta Ndlela:
In the way that, like it’s a decoding system, because we all have filters. You know, especially as you get older, you have all kinds of experiences and a certain view your own narrow view of the world. You have all kinds of experiences and a certain view your own narrow view of the world and so when you say something to me, I decode it with that filter. Somebody else thinks he has the exact same thing and he has something different.
Tim Newman:
And again, us as leaders, we have to be open to accepting that and saying, okay, what can we do differently to help you? Yeah, I look at it kind of from the standpoint of leadership. What can I do to help you be better, so that the whole team can be better, so the whole organization can be better and being okay with? I don’t want to even say mess up, because maybe it didn’t mess up, maybe we just need to provide to be better. Let’s just say be better.
Roberta Ndlela:
And things can always be better. Communication can always be improved. And speaking of leadership, there’s another one. This is a body language, one which is when, let’s say, for instance, I make a mistake at work and you’re my leader, minutes of your time, let’s talk about this. Something happened right.
Roberta Ndlela:
If we get into the boardroom and you sit down, if you sit at the, you know the chair at the head of the board, the one where the head of the board, the head of the department is, or something, and I sit on the side, or if we sit opposite each other, we sit on that side of the table. I sit on the side of the table like an interview process. Literally, that body language is saying we’re fighting this conflict, we’re on opposite sides of the issue, but if you sit next to me, on the same side, you are saying, as my leader, that we are going to deal with the issue on the table, but we are on the same team. We are going to deal with the issue on the table, but we are on the same team. We are going to tackle this enemy together.
Tim Newman:
But that disarms the tension before the conversation even starts. Happens is disarmed and you can hopefully you can come at it from a I’m going to say logical because you’re still probably being logical anyway, but from a from a calmer state, a common ground on how to get to the solution and how to get to the answer.
Roberta Ndlela:
You and I have had this discussion before as well on how conflict in the workplace is usually not conflict conflict, as in people on opposite sides of the issue, one person might be the type of person who wants to know the end goal and the other person is more the method one and they think they are fighting, but they’re actually. It’s the process that it’s a debate, not the end goal.
Tim Newman:
And being okay with that, me being okay with the way you go about it and you being okay with the way I go about it. And again, if we understand that we’re all in this together and we’re all working towards the same end goal, it makes things go a lot smoother.
Roberta Ndlela:
Because, also being okay about it, you must understand my communication style. But a lot of the time people fight because they don’t even understand their own style. To articulate to the next person that here’s how I look at things, right, and the person, the other person must ask did I understand you? Right, tim, when you say this is how you do things, did I and is that correct?
Roberta Ndlela:
right right we usually don’t ask that rephrasing question to see if our decoding, our understanding, was what was meant exactly. Laura, I’m thinking, oh I, I hear exactly what tim is saying, and then we do the wrong thing or we don’t even share how we go about it.
Tim Newman:
We just assume that everybody understands us and understands what’s going on up here. And well, you, you know me long enough. You should just know. This is what I’m thinking, this is what I’m doing.
Roberta Ndlela:
You know me long enough. We always make the last assumption and we wonder why people go in a different direction.
Tim Newman:
Yeah, Exactly so. You’ve been a podcast host for over 200 episodes, which is amazing, and one of the things I like about being a host is you know you really get to learn. You learn a lot. You learn a lot about your audience. You learn a lot from your guests. Just in our conversation today, when we started doing this, you gave me three things that I had no idea about. That now be part of my routine. Well, what are some of the key things from communication that you’ve learned from your audience and your guests over these 200 plus episodes audience?
Roberta Ndlela:
and your guests over these 200 plus episodes. Let’s talk about the audience first. What I’ve learned is that my audience have they have heard the concept. They have heard all the words that get thrown around empathy, this narcissism. Everybody throws those words around all the time. I don’t know if you’ve seen them, tim, but everywhere you go on the internet, everybody throws those words at me. I’m an empath. They’ve heard it.
Roberta Ndlela:
What they are looking for is stories, and here’s why storytelling is so key. They’ve heard the concept, but if you tell a story on how, in your workplace, that was applied that was applied in a practical scenario they will remember that than somebody else who was speaking all expert ideas. They remember the story. The story with my brother was so far it goes when I was starting, but you remember it. People remember stories. So I always say to my guests my listeners are looking for the story. They’ve heard all the stuff before. They can read it on Google, but your story about it is what distinguishes it from the rest.
Roberta Ndlela:
And secondly, and then when it comes to my guests, what I’ve realized is, as we were talking about earlier, energy is very key. You and I are both podcast hosts and we’ve shared off the record we’ve shared how, when picking a guest for the show, I’ve had to learn this. I didn’t master it at first. That’s why you were saying earlier that do the thing first. You will learn as you go that the relationship building aspect is very key. Let me give you an example. I had someone and I thought we hit it off. She was an amazing guest. I thought, wow, good. Never shared the episode. Like you know, they always promise you they’re going to share the episode and they don’t. Never shared the episode, never heard from her again. Which will happen, tim, sorry to be the bearer of bad news. Guess what? Now she has a business and some of her clients want to be on my show and I said nope.
Tim Newman:
That’s what happens.
Roberta Ndlela:
Human nature. That’s another thing I learned about human nature. But at the same time, like I said, we’re talking about Tyler Forland, drew T Jackson. She is a certain percentage of guests who will be like that, but the good ones, like drew and tyler, and those that will keep the relationship going, you can collaborate with on different projects in the future. They make the process worth it.
Roberta Ndlela:
I love talking, as you can see. I really love talking. I enjoy meeting people this way. Podcast podcasting is my go-to. I get excited in the morning when I know I’m going to have a conversation with Tim, I’m going to have a conversation with Tal, I’m going to have a conversation with Shawna. I love this and the people who make it worth it are those that you remember the most.
Roberta Ndlela:
And what my guests taught me in over 200 episodes is that we are all looking for the same thing, the reason we talk about communications. We all want to be seen, we all want to be heard and we all want to be valued. And when those three things are not met by the other person, when we don’t feel that they see us, hear us and value us, that’s why we withdraw our communication Right, but if I feel that you see me, I can be vulnerable and open up and say, hey, this is what I’m thinking and that creates connection. When it’s all about connection with the audience, I’m not saying go tell the audience that you did the laundry, no, no, no. But I’ve learned also very different audience engagement styles through my guests, and not all of them about, okay, raise your hand if you’ve heard a story before. Those are basic ones, but so many different ones.
Roberta Ndlela:
But at the end of the day, people want you, the person, your unique personality. We learn the strategies. We’re going to teach you the strategies on what to do, when to pause, how to speak, how to structure your speech, but they want those strategies to incorporate your personality. People want you. They don’t want a carbon copy of a perfect expert, as we call them. There’s no such thing. So build relationships. Learn that when you build those relationships, you don’t know where they’re going to lead Value. See and hear other people and, most of all, understand how you, how your communication style, is experienced by others. Always take the time to ask. It doesn’t hurt to ask.
Tim Newman:
Right, and that goes for anything. We don’t know something you should ask. And to me going back to leadership, asking questions really kind of shows who the leaders are.
Roberta Ndlela:
Because you know what Some leaders have put into this idea. Some leaders have got into this idea that I should know everything, I should have all the answers so that my team respects me. Is that true?
Tim Newman:
If you think you know all the answers, then that to me means you’re more arrogant and not really a good leader, right? I don’t know anybody who knows everything, knows all the answers to anything. And here’s something that I’ve found is if we actually listen to some of the young professionals and what their ideas are, they’ve got great ideas on how to do things and why to do things a little bit different.
Roberta Ndlela:
She would advise a lot of the middle-aged middle managers and C-suite level leaders to get a young mentor in their 20s. Get a young mentor. I’m like really Tell me more. She said just what you said, tim. They are filled with ideas, current, contemporary ideas. One of my beefs with South African politics is that our what you guys call Congress and the Senate, our parliament, has guys in their 80s. They don’t know what’s going on with technology. We need guys in their 30s to run our parliament. You know what I mean. So get a young mentor.
Tim Newman:
That’s where the real workforce is coming from and they’re the ones that are really going to be leading us, you know, in the next 20 years. So give them an opportunity to share their thoughts and ideas to transform whatever it is that we’re working in, whatever industry that they’re in. Not all ideas are going to work, but, listen, they may have all ideas are going to work, but listen, they may have something that’s going to actually transform things and make the organization money or give them a bigger market share or build better relationships or whatever that thing is. And we have to be open to actually listening and giving them that opportunity, as opposed to no, you’re brand new, you don’t know what you’re talking about. Just sit there, do what we tell you to do and if we want something, we’ll ask you that. That’s not how it works anymore.
Roberta Ndlela:
Exactly. And the thing is, not only are they innovative, they have innovative ideas. So, if you give them a chance and they enter the workforce, please listen because, like you said, they have such innovative, brilliant, innovative ideas. However, leaders find that the challenge, speaking of communication, the challenge with the young professionals, the fresh graduates they don’t know how to communicate.
Tim Newman:
They don’t.
Roberta Ndlela:
How do we bridge that gap, especially because you deal with them a lot in college? How do you, as a leader in a corporate who’s been there long and there’s a formality and there’s a process in communicating, but they tend to be what we call casual in the communication, they use text, language and things like that. How do we incorporate those skills so that not only do they sell themselves at an interview, so they get given a chance to enter that building and share their innovative ideas?
Tim Newman:
Yeah, that’s the tough part, because you know we’ve talked that we don’t teach soft skills, but you’re so focused on technical aspect of education and we forget about the soft skills. The term that I hate is people skills. I mean, I don’t know what people skills are. I don’t know what a people person is, the soft skills, the things that help build those relationships. That’s where we’re really lacking and everybody along the whole continuum needs me telling people what they need to do. But it really needs to be more open to incorporating those types of things back into our education system and bringing us back to where we really need to be whether it’s verbal, nonverbal, written communication across the board and understand that building relationships really probably should be one of our number one priorities.
Roberta Ndlela:
It should. It certainly is, Should be. And the thing is speaking of when you talk about speaking and you talk about young professionals in college. Usually their first exposure to a presentation is the professors, and usually how do the professors make a presentation?
Tim Newman:
Open up that computer and open up PowerPoint.
Roberta Ndlela:
PowerPoint right, and so when they come to the workforce they think that’s what the expectation is, and so they don’t have relationship building skills. And it’s not this big hoopla of relationship, it just means be able to talk to people, have listening skills, be able to sit down and be present with others.
Tim Newman:
Right.
Roberta Ndlela:
And listen to them and know how to make small talk. I don’t know if it’s the internet that’s to blame. Why do people struggle with small talk nowadays?
Tim Newman:
That’s to blame. Why do people struggle with small talk nowadays? I think that the whole idea of cell phones and social media, that’s where all the communication is, and it’s text messages, it’s emojis. If I can avoid talking to you face to face, I’ll do it because I can be sitting right next to you and text you. That’s what kids do they sit right next to each other and instead of talking, they’re just texting back.
Roberta Ndlela:
In the same room, and so that’s why we don’t know how to make small talk, because everything starts with icebreaker small talk and then you start to ask the other. Also another skill, a communication skill that tends to be overlooked. Is that be interesting? Tends to be overlooked, is that be interesting? No, what makes you interesting is that you are interested in the other person. So if I’m busy just talking about myself the whole time, people switch off.
Tim Newman:
They do. They do Because they want to talk about themselves. That’s the other thing around, right. They don’t really want to listen, but they want to talk about themselves and they expect you to listen, and the reality is nobody’s listening, because when you’re not talking, you’re listening. You’ve got that voice going on in your head. Okay, this is what I’m going to say. This is what I’m going to say. This is what I’m going to say.
Roberta Ndlela:
So people, if people reach out, it’s better to ask questions. Even if you reach out to a person, ask them questions about themselves, you can talk about yourself when they ask you a question back. But it’s always good to be interested in other people. It will give you a lot of information on how to build the relationship, on how to network with them, on how to do business with them in the future, because you understand them more. But if you just come to push your agenda, how’s that working out for you Exactly?
Tim Newman:
So if you could give a young professional advice on speaking in public who you know they’re afraid of messing up or sound stupid for messing up, what would you tell them?
Roberta Ndlela:
Let’s address the messing up part. Guess what? Let me give you this exercise. A friend of mine once taught me this the person that you think is the best speaker in the world. The next time, I want you to take a notepad and a pen, sit down attentively, look for mistakes that they make and, trust me, you will find them. When the person that you idolize so much as a speaker, when you realize that they make and, trust me, you will find them. When the person that you idolize so much as a speaker, when you realize that they make mistakes too, guess what? You’ll be okay. You’ll be okay with the fact that even when you speak, one day, you will make a mistake and you will still carry on speaking. So that’s your first exercise.
Roberta Ndlela:
Secondly, this is one that Toastmasters uses, which is just pick a random topic or a random word and speak on it. Just ask your family members, your siblings, your spouse, your friend, whatever. Just say to them just listen to me talk about eggs. Listen to me talk about a book, listen to me talk about the weather for a minute, for a whole 60 seconds. The more you get accustomed to just a random topic, just speaking, you know thinking on your feet because people are always afraid that they’re going to do or they’re going to say something wrong. Back to the judgment again. When you get used to that, you realize you know what I mean. There’s no one particular wrong thing or one particular. Say it this way and not this way. Otherwise, this way is criminal. Just get accustomed to speaking when you’re in college. Get used to those social skills. Talk to people. Talk to people, not just about academics. Just have a conversation. Just have a conversation. Look at our podcast interview Tim. Was this a conversation or an interview? Was it scripted Teleprompter? What was this?
Tim Newman:
Just conversation.
Roberta Ndlela:
Just have a conversation. Public speaking is a conversation. Yes, they’re talking about something. But if you see it as a conversation and you are prepared in what the topic is and what you’re going to cover, you can always present it in a certain way with your personality in it. But at the end of the day, do not be afraid to mess up. We all do. I can forget something and then towards the end I’m like oh, by the way, Exactly, exactly.
Roberta Ndlela:
Yeah, and you bring it back to it and your audience loves that because they see that you’re real. There’s a friend of mine who coaches public speakers and she said I sometimes ask my audience and I go, by the way, where was I? And they love to tell her. They think it’s the most exciting thing. They love to say, oh yeah, you are talking about this and this and this and this. She’s like oh yeah, back to my talk, and then she goes on. They love to remind her. So do not be afraid of messing up. Nobody is sitting there thinking, oh, because people spend their time listening to you. Why would they want to spend their time listening to somebody that they want to mess up.
Tim Newman:
Exactly, they would do it. Uh-uh Would do it. That’s good advice, and if you want to find somebody who’s going to mess up, follow me around for a day and just listen to some things that I say. It’d be comical.
Roberta Ndlela:
We all mess up. I don’t know how many times I’ve stuttered in this interview. I don’t know how many times I butchered a word. I don’t know how many times I said something and I tripped over my tongue. Whatever it is, we are all human. But that hasn’t stopped me from doing the podcast, meeting amazing people, and now I’m on Tim’s podcast. It never would have happened had I said until the day I speak perfectly, this is never going to happen.
Tim Newman:
Not going to happen. Well, Roberta, thank you so much for joining us. Where can people find you?
Roberta Ndlela:
and where can they find your podcast? Excellent stuff. Thank you, tim. This has been such a pleasure, as usual, to have a conversation with you. So I can send my email and my podcast is on Apple, so can I write it here on the chat, or should I say it verbally?
Tim Newman:
Say it verbally, and then I’ll put it in the show notes.
Roberta Ndlela:
All right, so it’s the Speaking and Communicating Podcast, both words I-N-G Speaking and Communicating Podcast. It’s on Apple Spotify and we have a YouTube channel where we post the YouTube videos. And then you can also email me on Roberta, r-o-b-e-r-t-a, the number four S for sugar, k for king, at gmailcom Roberta4SK at gmailcom. So look us up speaking and communicating podcast and you can email me, roberta for SK at gmailcom.
Tim Newman:
That’s awesome, yeah, and I’m glad that you actually said with I and G, or you know, I live down South and we talk about fishing.
Roberta Ndlela:
Without the G. Without the G.
Tim Newman:
Anyway, well, Roberta, again, thank you so much for joining us today. I really appreciate it. I’ve been looking forward to this for a long time and I can’t wait to talk to you again soon.
Roberta Ndlela:
My pleasure. Thank you, Tim. Thank you to your listeners. I appreciate you guys. Thank you.
Tim Newman:
Take care. Let’s take a few minutes to reflect on our conversation with Roberta and Della. We covered a variety of broad topics related to leadership, communication and soft skills. I had been looking forward to recording this episode for quite some time and certainly did not disappoint.
Tim Newman:
Roberta’s conversational approach to podcasting exemplifies her belief that public speaking and communication is all about talking to others in a sincere and genuine manner. She stresses the importance of decoding communications to ensure all parties receive the messages you want them to get, by rephrasing, asking questions and checking on the impact of what you think you delivered and checking on the impact of what you think you delivered. She emphasizes the power of storytelling by sharing her experiences in South Africa with her brother, her podcast and specific business examples people can easily relate to and learn from. One of the big takeaways from our conversation was Roberta’s perspective that everyone wants the same thing out of communication. Was Roberta’s perspective that everyone wants the same thing out of communication? Everyone wants to be seen by others, be heard by others and be valued by others. Those three components of communication are paramount and without them, communication breaks down and people will shut down. I appreciate the fact that Roberta shares points to keep in mind, as well as suggestions as to how to implement them, so you can avoid the pitfalls along the way.
Tim Newman:
Can’t thank Roberta enough for sharing her time with the Speaking with Confidence community. I encourage you to add her podcast to your arsenal as you continue to master the art of effective communication. Please make sure you visit the Speaking with Confidence website and join our growing community. Sign up for special updates regarding the August 1st launch of the Formula for Public Speaking. Also, be sure to subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss any episodes. You can download, like and share the podcast with friends. Always remember your voice has the power to change the world. We’ll talk to you next time. Take care, thank you.