Building Trust, Winning Work: Mastering Soft Skills for Professional Success

Tim Newman [00:00:09]:
You can be the smartest person in the room and still lose the room. Technical skill might get you hired, but communication is what gets you promoted. If you don't know how to build trust, you won't win the work, period. Welcome back to Speaking with Confidence, the podcast that helps you build the soft skills that lead to real results. Communication, storytelling, public speaking, and showing up with confidence in every conversation that counts. I'm Tim Newman, a recovering college professor turned communication coach, and I'm thrilled to guide you on your journey to becoming a powerful communicator. Today's guest is Ken Harms. Ken is an advisor, speaker, and and the author of Building Trust, Winning Work, a book that helps everyday professionals build meaningful client relationships.

Tim Newman [00:00:59]:
Grow with confidence and create lasting impact by leading with trust. Ken, welcome to Speaking with Confidence, bud.

Ken Harms [00:01:06]:
Hey, thank you so much, Tim. Pleasure to be with you today.

Tim Newman [00:01:10]:
You come with 40 years watching technically brilliant people lose opportunities because they can't communicate. And I spent years watching students graduate without ever being taught how to communicate. Why is this gap still here when we know how important it is to have good, confident, easy communication?

Ken Harms [00:01:34]:
Well, that's a great question, and that's why folks like you and I exist, is because there is that gap. Right. And, you know, it's a bit of a failure on our education system, particularly higher education system. I train and coach and work with and mentored so many young people that have come out with great degrees, whether it's architecture, construction, management, engineering. And I ask them, you know, have you ever. Did you ever take a class in public speaking? Was it a requirement? And very rarely was it a requirement. They may have done it on their own, but they come out, as you said, with good technical skills, but relatively clueless in terms of what it takes to build a trusting relationship and help their company win work. And just to reiterate what you were talking about, Tim, I did a little bit of research through the training and coaching I did.

Ken Harms [00:02:38]:
And so an outside source, not me, the Carnegie Institute, says that 85% of your future salary and compensation is going to be based on your communication skills and your ability to lead. The technical skills get you in the door. Everything else after that, you know, it's what we're talking about.

Tim Newman [00:02:58]:
Yeah. And it's, you know, we can tell people this until we're blue in the face, but they've got to. They've got to want to be able to improve in that area. And one of the stories I tell, you know, kind of on a regular basis is, you know, my last semester Teaching. I had every class I taught, they had to do presentations. But I had this gentleman who, a young guy, he did a pretty good job, you know, for his age. And I pulled him aside after class. I said, look, can I give you a couple of tips to make it just a little bit better? He was at that stage and he said, no, I'm good.

Tim Newman [00:03:39]:
And I said, well, you know, this isn't going to take a lot of work if you just try these couple things. He said, Dr. Newman, I'm good enough as I am. I said, okay. You can't make them do it right. You can't make them try things. And I kind of think back and you and I talked about this in our pre interview call. If the greatest athletes of all time, the greatest of, in whatever it is, they're trying to get better at their craft, why is it that average people at whatever it is that they do don't have that same drive?

Ken Harms [00:04:19]:
You know, one thing that companies can do is once you get people in the door, particularly in today's door seller model, which is so prevalent in my industry, you know, the architecture, engineering, construction industries, the built environment, heavily relying on do or seller. And so, you know, do or sellers are successful project managers that have then reached that point in their career where leadership is saying help us win work. But there's very little training. And that's where that's a gap that I've started to fill by providing the training that I do. And the book that I wrote that you, you mentioned going in, building trust, winning work and have a whole chapter on presenting with confidence, which I'm, I'm sure you would, you would enjoy. But you've also got to provide the training, right? Yeah, you have to help people see themselves and hear themselves and get a better understanding of what does it take to speak with confidence. You know what, and one of the things I try to share is that confidence is not about being the loudest person in the room. It's about being the most prepared and the most focused on the client.

Ken Harms [00:05:36]:
You know, if and, and one of the good. We're talking about speaking with confidence, but going right along with that. Tim is listening with confidence, listening really well. You don't need so many people want to fill the room with noise and it's not necessary. First you have to listen before you speak. So you know, that's,

Tim Newman [00:06:04]:
I think we

Ken Harms [00:06:04]:
could all do a better job in helping build confidence in the people that are in our employ and helping them become better communicators, better listeners and ultimately Stronger relationship builders.

Tim Newman [00:06:18]:
Yeah, I want to come back to preparation here in a second, but let's talk about listening. And I take this phrase from Tim Elmore. He's really into intergenerational work, especially with Gen Zs right now. And one of the sayings that he has is we need to speak like we're correct, but listen like we're wrong. And what that does is it actually gives you the mindset of being open to hearing what other people are saying and. And hear their points of view.

Ken Harms [00:06:51]:
Yeah, I use an acronym when I'm coaching people. And in a training that I do, it's wait, W A I T. And it's a reminder that Y. That's the W am I talking? W A I T. Why am I talking? And just a reminder to folks that let's go in with the mindset of listening before we talk, particularly in an interaction with a client or a prospective client, it shows respect as well. If you go in and just start blabbering, it's going to be hard to make a real significant connection. But if you go into that meeting, that networking event, with the mindset of I'm going to really listen well. And one of the.

Ken Harms [00:07:39]:
One of the tools to help people listen well is to have them do their research and come up with four or five questions about the client that they want to ask. Right. So you go in with the mindset of, I'm going to be talking more about you than I am be talking about me. And I'm going to show you that I've done my. My homework by asking these thoughtful questions, questions that are going to start a really important, hopefully an important dialogue between the two of us. You come away from, say a client or a prospective client gave you 20 minutes. All right, I got 20 minutes on my calendar. I'm willing to come for you to come in and talk to me.

Ken Harms [00:08:19]:
Well, if you come in and you tell them all about you and you've eaten up 10 or 15 minutes, you don't have enough time left to have that meaningful conversation. But if you go in really well prepared and demonstrate that and say, I respect your time, you've given me, you know, 20, 30 minutes, I'm so appreciative. I have these questions to ask you. And you go through that, they're going to come away with, wow, you know, Tim. Tim was really well prepared. He was respectful, he stayed on time. And, you know, now you're probably going to get that second meeting. And that's.

Ken Harms [00:08:53]:
That's right. That's an Important, right?

Tim Newman [00:08:59]:
Yeah. And I think that kind of leads into the whole idea of selling as service as opposed to the whole idea of a transaction. Right. You know, it's. Go back to the whole idea of preparation. When you go into, I would say, any type of meeting, sales meeting, interview. To me, it doesn't really matter what it is. If you haven't done your preparation, if you haven't done your homework there, you're wasting everybody's time.

Ken Harms [00:09:29]:
Well, not only that, but to your point, you're not going to have any confidence. Right. So if you wing it or you didn't take enough time to do your background information, you show up, you're always. Maybe you're one of those people that are a little bit nervous anyway, going into an interview or a presentation, and now you're sitting there going, I really wish I would have studied this and done my homework, because now you're not going to be able to speak with confidence. So you really blown the opportunity.

Tim Newman [00:09:58]:
Exactly. So in terms of sales, why do so many young people resist the whole idea of sales? And what are they getting wrong from that perspective?

Ken Harms [00:10:13]:
I think it's probably cultural, something that they. They learned at an early age. I mean, listening to their parents with getting, you know, people knocking on the door or an experience they had when they went to, you know, buy their first car, whatever it is. There's a kind of a bad connotation to the word sales, and I don't agree with that because sales are the lifeblood of any company. And if you don't bring in sales, pretty soon you won't have a job. But acknowledging that they may have this kind of a bad feeling about that word, you know, what I talk to younger people about is don't think of it about sales. Think it about as service and serving. So if you're here to serve your colleagues in your company or serve your client, most importantly, if you think about that and you're solving a client's problem, clients have issues.

Ken Harms [00:11:18]:
And those of us that provide professional services or contracting, we're in it to solve that client's issues. So if you think about it in those terms, look, Tim. Tim has an issue. He shared that with us. He needs to get it solved. We want him to solve it with us. It's about serving Tim so that he could meet his goal. And.

Ken Harms [00:11:39]:
And as a result, we get an opportunity to meet some of our goals as well as a company. But that seems to resonate with a lot of younger people because I do think the younger generation has grown. Grown up with the concept of serving their community is an important thing for them. So if you think about serving your clients that are in your community, maybe it doesn't have that carry that bad connotation.

Tim Newman [00:12:04]:
Yeah. And to. To go along with what you're saying is whatever product or service that you're selling, it's there to solve a want or a need or problem. Exactly. And take from that approach. That's a brilliant approach to take. And then that takes that whole idea of sales and puts it in the back corner somewhere. And then you can just have a conversation.

Tim Newman [00:12:34]:
How can I help you? What is it that we can do to help you solve that problem? Again, I really do love that approach. Now, let's take it a step further because you and I are both really at the age where we went from almost zero technology to almost total digital overload. Yeah. You know, now we have email, text, zoom, LinkedIn. We're doing this. You're. You're in California, I'm in South Carolina. Why is face to face still the most important type of interpersonal communication?

Ken Harms [00:13:13]:
Well, I think one striking difference is the ability to be distracted if you're using the technology. Right. I mean, particularly during the COVID years, it was. It was beyond. I loved having the ability to connect through zoom or teams. And like you and I are doing now, that was awesome. But was really frustrating is sometimes people on the other end would turn their camera off. I was like, what? Why would you do that? It's one thing to say, I'm going to pause for a second or going to turn my camera.

Ken Harms [00:13:47]:
Yeah, I have to go do something. I have to go to the restroom or my dog needs to be let out, whatever. Just be honest about it. But if you turn the camera off, gosh, that's sending me a message. The face to face is so important because you can make that eye contact. You can have the handshake. You know, you can build a per. It's hard to build.

Ken Harms [00:14:05]:
I'm not saying that you can't do it, but it's harder to build a personal, trusting relationship remotely. And that's why I think you're seeing so many owners of businesses now saying, you need to come back to work. You know, maybe we can negotiate on a hybrid situation, but we need you in the office and we need you face to face with clients and in the construction world. You know, even during COVID that the guys in the field were in the field, they may have been wearing masks, but they were still out there doing their job. Right. Those of us that are back on the executive leadership team in the office or whatnot. It was hard to justify. Hey, we're asking them to be out there, but we're working from home.

Ken Harms [00:14:49]:
I don't think that's really a good idea. So. But back to your original question, Tim. I just think it's easier to get a feel for somebody and to know how your conversation is really working and resonating by being face to face.

Tim Newman [00:15:05]:
Yeah, I completely agree with you. And that's. I've shared this with a number of people. That's one of the things that I truly miss. You know, when I transitioned out of teaching into doing this, you know, full time, I miss the daily going in and seeing people and shaking your hands, having a cup of coffee, you know, just to sit down conversations, the informal conversations that you would have. You know, that's, again, that's, that's the downside. What I miss the upside is the ability to do these types of things, to be able to meet you, you know, talking to people all over the world and getting their perspective. But, but again, that interpersonal bond that's built by shaking somebody's hand, looking them in the eye, you can't truly replicate that in this manner.

Tim Newman [00:15:54]:
I mean, I can look you in the eye, but I'm not really looking you in the eye. I'm looking at the camera as opposed to you.

Ken Harms [00:16:00]:
Right, right, right.

Tim Newman [00:16:04]:
And so for me, as I'm looking into the camera, I can't even see your facial expressions. You know, I can't see if. What if, if what I'm saying is resonating with you. I've got to look down here. And now as I'm looking down here at you, you're saying, well, he's not even looking at me. Yeah, right. There's no eye contact there. How do I know he's even talking to me? So, so there's got to be that, that there's got to be a happy medium somewhere in that.

Ken Harms [00:16:30]:
Agree 100%.

Tim Newman [00:16:33]:
So how can we actually build trust, you know, digitally when, when we, when we don't have that, that, that close proximity. How do you do that?

Ken Harms [00:16:43]:
Well, yeah, big challenge, I think, if it's going to be completely digital, you know, it, it's, let's say the way you communicate in on email, the way a lot of messaging now is text or chats, chats and teams and then the camera and so forth. You gotta be mindful of, of all of that. When, when you're going more remote or more 100 digital, it, it's just again, at some point I, I think you have to get face to face with that, that client. It'd be like an employer having a remote employee forever and then, you know, wondering why you're not really feeling connected to them. It's, it's very, it's very difficult. So at some point I would recommend that you got to actually get that face to face time. But in the meantime, you know, talking about some of the same rules that are tips that you and I have already shared, being really engaged, being prepared for your meetings, you know, and then even it is if it is remote, getting there on time, which is a pet peeve of mine. Right?

Tim Newman [00:17:57]:
Yes.

Ken Harms [00:17:57]:
Being on time, not being late, not being distracted. It, you can tell on camera if somebody's looking at their phone or looking at their watch, telltale sign that they're, it's really not working. It's not resonating. They're, they're looking to get out or leave or whatever. And so then there's tips to, to engage that person if you're seeing that they're losing confidence. Right. You could. Or losing attention.

Ken Harms [00:18:21]:
Attention. Right. You know, you could, you could still, in a friendly manner say if that was happening between, between you and I, I could say, you know, use your name and just say so Tim, you know, maybe, maybe you have a question in that regard or, you know, I think based on our previous conversations, Tim, you might find this next topic really important. You know, things like that, that grab their attention and bring them back to the camera and back back to what you're talking about. And then the follow ups with again, really thoughtful, kind of a summary of the conversation. And with AI tools now, there's no reason why you can't, you know, you can record and use AI Otter, and there's lots of tools. You could summarize the meeting, get that out to them in a timely manner. And so all of those tools can be very.

Ken Harms [00:19:08]:
That we talked about technology before. Technology can be an asset and is a tool that everyone should be using as well.

Tim Newman [00:19:16]:
Yeah. And you know, you bring that up like, like Otter, you know, the, the note taking stuff. I love that. I love that tool because even when I'm, you know, paying attention in a meeting, the way I operate, if I've got to stop and write something down or take notes or type something out on a notepad, I'm missing something else that's being said.

Ken Harms [00:19:39]:
That's right.

Tim Newman [00:19:40]:
So some of those other things, some of those tools are really helpful, especially for somebody like me who's Got ADHD really bad and it really does keep me on track. So like you said, use the tools that are available and so that you can still be that engaged participant in whatever that is. Whether it's a one on one, whether it's a team meeting, it doesn't really matter what it is, but stay engaged.

Ken Harms [00:20:08]:
Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Tim Newman [00:20:10]:
And let's take this just one step further. And I really like this, what you said to me in our pre interview talk. You talked about three hurdles. Likability, competence and trust.

Ken Harms [00:20:23]:
Yes, right.

Tim Newman [00:20:24]:
Those are three hurdles that everybody's got to get over in working relationship. Which one do young professionals struggle with most and why?

Ken Harms [00:20:33]:
That's a good question. Younger professionals. So let's, let's set the context of what you and I, you know, we talked about previously. So for today's audience, let's just say picture a quarter mile track. You're at the start line and this happens every single day and every single kind of human interaction there you come out of the blocks and initially there's a hurdle that's up there and it's called likability. You get over that hurdle and then you demonstrate your competence. You get past that second hurdle and down there, that home stretch, the third and final is trust. So people are judging you today very, very quickly when they meet you, whether it's digitally or whether it's in person, the way you look, the way you dress, the way you shake hands, where you look in the eye, so on and so forth.

Ken Harms [00:21:21]:
People are like, boom, I like them, I don't like her, etc. Etc. Swipe left, swipe white. You know what I mean? I mean it's all absolutely. So you have to be likable. And then you demonstrate after some time together you can, whether that's in a single meeting or throughout several meetings, you're demonstrating, okay, you're competent. If you're not likable, people may not even give you a chance to demonstrate your competence. And then once you, you, you know, spend more and more time with them, what we are all searching for is that trusting relationship that takes our personal human interaction to a whole nother level.

Ken Harms [00:21:56]:
Right? And you know, you pray that you don't ever break that trust. So back to your question. What's the biggest thing for young people? You know, I would say just to being mindful of the likability, what's happening day to day. You know, you and I are of a generation and we're probably taught and raised to be prepared in a way in terms of our personal look, the way we dress, so on and so forth, you know, and I, and today I work with a lot of younger people that are very, very casual, very casual in terms of their grooming, their dress, their attire. And, you know, I guess that's fine if it, that's in. If in your world, in your office, that's kind of the norm and the culture. But when you're meeting somebody new, you don't know if that's their culture. Right.

Ken Harms [00:22:56]:
So until you do, I would say let's, let's stack the odds on our favor to be likable. You know, for no, we're going to a networking event where we know we have a meeting. Let's think about the way we're going to dress and the way we're going to appear to that new person so I can get over that hurdle of being liked. It's, it's the way you present yourself, the way you speak, the way you listen, all those things are going to come into play on that quick hurdle of being likable or not. So, you know, and then I think the competence, being able to demonstrate competence comes with confidence. Right?

Tim Newman [00:23:38]:
Yes, absolutely right. Right.

Ken Harms [00:23:39]:
So if you're feeling good about yourself and you're confident, then. And I believe most, most people, they've gone through the screening process, they have their degree, they got hired, they, you know, they are competent. They just have to be able to demonstrate that. And a lot of times that comes through the soft skills and you don't have that ability to demonstrate you are competent unless initially you cross that first hurdle of being likable. So again, stack the odds in your favor, you know, dress the part, make sure you're looking good, and then the rest will take care of itself. So I would say that's the biggest challenge for younger people today. And they don't, like. Many don't like the fact that they're being judged.

Ken Harms [00:24:27]:
So it's like that's reality, you know, that is, it is what it is. And so whether you like it or not, it is what's happening. So you can, you can be all upset about it, but you're going to be judged anyway. Right. So why not again, you know, go prepared.

Tim Newman [00:24:47]:
Yeah. I love the way you said, I love your attitude about it. And you're absolutely right. You don't have to like it. It's not right. It's not wrong. It just is. It's just what's happening.

Tim Newman [00:25:00]:
And if, again, if you want to be upset about it, be upset about it and don't do Anything. And then. But don't get upset that you're not advancing. Don't get upset that you're not being asked back for these things. It's just, it's just one of those things that you have to do.

Ken Harms [00:25:18]:
Yeah, exactly.

Tim Newman [00:25:20]:
On LinkedIn, every once in a while there's, and I can't remember which company does it, but they've got a Gen X in a seat in a, in a Millennial or Gen Z in a seat, and they got paddles, yes or no. And they're asking them questions. They're asking generational questions. And one of them I saw the other day was about dress. Is it appropriate to wear shorts into the office? And. Okay, you know what the answer is? You know what our answer is, right? It's no. And the Millennial said yes. And he gave reasons why.

Tim Newman [00:25:55]:
Yes. Like, well, it would be appropriate if it wasn't. If, if we were doing something, some manual work or this, that. Or anything that. Okay, yeah, that's right. But on a regular, regular workday, if you wear shorts. No. If you wear clothes that have.

Tim Newman [00:26:11]:
What another question was clothes with holes in them. Absolutely not.

Ken Harms [00:26:16]:
Right.

Tim Newman [00:26:16]:
And so, and I've had these conversations with, with students all the time. I said, you know, and you, you probably remember this saying as well, you don't dress for the job you have. You just dress for the job that you want.

Ken Harms [00:26:29]:
Right, right.

Tim Newman [00:26:31]:
You don't. And that's the way you have to look at it. And it's so much harder for them to understand that now. And, and I get it, I get where they're coming from. But on the other hand, they've got to meet us somewhere in the middle, somewhere halfway, and say, look, okay, yeah, we understand.

Ken Harms [00:26:52]:
And it also depends on industry, because if you're in Silicon Valley, in tech, you know, people at Meta and Google and Tesla are probably dressing pretty relaxed. That's their culture. Right. But if you're going to work for a Fortune 500 company or a financial service company or, you know, in my world, an architect or an engineer, I don't think that's appropriate to dress that way. So you can still be business casual, but, you know, showing up with shorts and flip flops and holes in your jeans, that, that's, that wouldn't. I don't think that works.

Tim Newman [00:27:37]:
It doesn't. Yeah, I agree with you. So let me ask you this question. Do you think it's generational or lack of mentorship?

Ken Harms [00:27:45]:
Both.

Tim Newman [00:27:46]:
Yeah, I agree. Yeah, I completely agree. And I'll just tell a quick story here. At some point, it was probably six or seven years before I left teaching, had students that refused to get dressed up for presentations or when we had guest speakers come in, I said, I'm trying to teach you all to portray this image. And they refused. And I got called to the dean's office. He says, well, you can't make them do it. And I said, well, we're trying to teach them, we're trying to get them.

Tim Newman [00:28:27]:
Our responsibility is to prepare them for the world of work. And I can only do so much, but if I'm not going to be supported by, by the administration, what are we doing?

Ken Harms [00:28:41]:
Right, right.

Tim Newman [00:28:42]:
Yeah, that's, that's part of the problem.

Ken Harms [00:28:43]:
We can have a whole nother conversation about that. Right? Yeah, but, you know, it's not about people being comfortable. That's her. So it seems like the default answer for your dudes, they need to be comfortable. And that's not going to make anybody better. Right, Right. You have to be uncomfortable sometimes. And it's better to be uncomfortable in a college environment.

Tim Newman [00:29:07]:
Yes.

Ken Harms [00:29:07]:
Than it is to be uncomfortable when you get to the job.

Tim Newman [00:29:11]:
Exactly.

Ken Harms [00:29:11]:
Yeah.

Tim Newman [00:29:13]:
And you know that, that. Because I would tell them all the time, you're either going to pay now when the stakes are low, or you're going to pay later. But you're going to pay.

Ken Harms [00:29:21]:
Yeah, exactly. Right.

Tim Newman [00:29:23]:
So you, you choose how, how much you want to pay.

Ken Harms [00:29:26]:
Yeah, it's, you know, and again, going back to that kind of proof statement from the Carnegie Institute that I quoted before, 85% of your future earnings are going to be based on your soft skills, your communication, and your ability to lead. And that's going to require you to be uncomfortable once in a while. So, you know, it's, it's unfortunate that a lot of universities are, would, would answer the exact same way as your dean did, but I, I think it's a mistake.

Tim Newman [00:29:56]:
And that, that kind of leads into as well, the whole idea of the, the line between authenticity and professionalism. Right. You know, where is that line?

Ken Harms [00:30:09]:
Well, you know, I would like to think it's, it's one in the same that, you know, being professional and being authentic is really, at least in my world, kind of one and the same. I coach people to be very authentic, be themselves, but I'm working with people that are professional. So, you know, they, they, they get that. And there's a, there's a line where, and where that makes a difference is you could be really professional but not authentic. Right?

Tim Newman [00:30:42]:
Yes.

Ken Harms [00:30:42]:
So, you know, somebody can eventually kind of see through that, but you're saying, you know, an example would be. I kind of got the sense that you were just saying that because you thought it was the right answer. Right. But being truthful to your clients, being. And leading with that authenticity will get you further than, you know, shaking your head and agreeing with them all the time. If you think there's, particularly if you're serving a client and you see that the client is moving in a bad direction or you have a suggestion for them, you have to speak up. And that's where public speaking comes in. Because what we want to do with every time we speak is to influence, is it not? I mean, if you're a politician, you want people to vote for you.

Ken Harms [00:31:26]:
If you're a leader in a company, you want people to follow you. If you're a superintendent on a job site and you need a change order to be approved by the owner, yet that's you're influencing. It's all about influencing. So I think it's best to try to influence if you're very authentic. And, and what do you think?

Tim Newman [00:31:51]:
Oh, I, I completely agree with you. And, and generally people can tell when you're just saying something because you think that's what they want to hear.

Ken Harms [00:32:01]:
Yeah.

Tim Newman [00:32:01]:
Because it, it just comes off so, so bad.

Ken Harms [00:32:05]:
Right.

Tim Newman [00:32:06]:
I mean, you're, you're, you're. Everything changes. Your body change by language changes, your facial expressions change. Yeah, just, it just comes like, you know, most of the time especially. This is one good thing about the younger generation. Gen Z. Gen Z is really good at finding that out. I mean, they're, man, they, they can nail it.

Tim Newman [00:32:24]:
Really, really good. And so, you know, it's, that's the whole, whole thing. You've, you can't just try and. Excuse me. Yeah. People like that, you know.

Ken Harms [00:32:36]:
Right.

Tim Newman [00:32:37]:
They're going to find you out.

Ken Harms [00:32:38]:
Yep. Yep. And if we were to put ourselves on that track with the three hurdles, that's an example of falling over the trust hurdle.

Tim Newman [00:32:47]:
Yes.

Ken Harms [00:32:48]:
You were likable, you're competent. Then all of a sudden, you know what? I think you're BSing me. Then you're stumbling over that trust hurdle. Now you got to rebuild a relationship. Right?

Tim Newman [00:33:00]:
Yeah, yeah. And I don't know what it is. I think universe, the universe has a way of bringing things together. And we talk about improving, we talk about getting better. And one of the things that I've been working on is stories, telling stories about to be able to use. And I'm working on one, on trust right now.

Ken Harms [00:33:23]:
Cool.

Tim Newman [00:33:23]:
And it revolves around Atkins. And it's just so funny that the idea of trust can be. Takes forever to build, but can be gone in a second.

Ken Harms [00:33:39]:
Yeah.

Tim Newman [00:33:39]:
And people don't realize that, so.

Ken Harms [00:33:41]:
And you know what, I remind folks when I do that training that I talk a lot about trust. I, I just say, you know, let's take ourselves out of the business realm and think about personal. You're in a relationship with somebody, you spent years building it, it's your significant other, and then you found out they did something to break your trust. What's that look like? How does that feel? Are you going to be able to rebuild it or is that relationship now over? And it's not much different in business.

Tim Newman [00:34:10]:
Right.

Ken Harms [00:34:10]:
So I'm fortunate to work with a number of companies where their references just have glowing terms about them that in construction it's never going to go perfect. There's no perfect set of documents. You're going to have challenges on schedule, on weather, you know, labor shortages. Nothing is going to go perfect. But how that contractor is treating the owner, how authentic they are, how transparent they are, how honest they are, will get them a long way, that will get them to the finish line and people will want to do work with them again instead of blowing, blowing smoke and BSing them. Right. Yeah. You have that trusting relationship.

Ken Harms [00:34:51]:
You can get through tough times. It's just like a marriage or a relationship. You're going to have some hurdles, you're going to have some bumps in a row, there's going to be financial issues or whatever, could be health issues. But if you have that trusting relationship and then you can get through those things and through those hurdles together, if you don't have it, then it's going to be a short term relationship.

Tim Newman [00:35:18]:
Yeah. And I'm glad you brought that up. So let's dive a little bit deeper into that because in your business, in your world, you build teams and there's a lot of times when you, you don't have a whole lot of time to get that team together, create a proposal and be able to present that. So how, how important is trust in doing that and how does that process work in your world?

Ken Harms [00:35:44]:
Well, in construction today, a lot there's, there's a heavy, heavy, heavy emphasis on collaboration in teams. So more and more owners are, are asking for design build instead of the old fashioned way of we're going to design it, then we're going to bid it and whoever is low is going to build it. Right. No opportunity there for trusting relationships because of the contract now a lot of them are saying, you know what, you guys put your team together and then present that integrated team to me, the owner. So it's very important for the architectural design team to have that trusting relationship with the build team, the general contractor, who's going to function as the design builder. And then you think about all the sub consultants. So you have your lead architect. Then you've got structural, mechanical, electrical, civil landscape.

Ken Harms [00:36:39]:
You got all, all your design side, engineering side, and then on your construction side, you got all your major subcontractors, contractors underneath that. It is an enormous team to, to put all together when these opportunities come out into the marketplace. Typically, architects and, and contractors have their favorites, right? So it's like, you know, this firm likes working with this firm. I'm going, they're going to be first or second on my list to call, say, hey, do you want a team again on this? And I can tell you, having been in those rooms a lot of times, it will be okay. Say I'm the builder and you're the architect. You're. You're the, you're Tim, the design team. We might say, well, it's kind of natural to call Tim.

Ken Harms [00:37:24]:
We've done a lot of similar projects with them. But then somebody speaks up in the room and says, but, you know, Tim's firm is very difficult to work with. You know, they're very obstinate. They don't take our suggestions well. They're not really collaborators. They, they will get the job done and they're very technically competent. But it sure isn't a lot of fun working with them. That's a conversation that, you know, you didn't used to have that conversation.

Ken Harms [00:37:47]:
Are they fun to work with? Right. But, you know, can we trust them? And so versus, hey, this team has a little less experience, but by God, we love working with them and we meet challenges head on and there's good transparency and collaboration amongst us. Those are key attributes now for forming of those teams. Because you're right, a lot of times these things will happen quickly. You'll know about a big project and start getting ready for it. But sometimes they, they can hit you or surprise you, and you got to put a team together quickly. Right? So it's really important in, in my world now that people trust each other and know each other on a very meaningful, deep level, what they can expect from each other.

Tim Newman [00:38:33]:
And you know, the younger generation today, one of the things that they hate doing is working in groups, working in teams. I don't know how that really translates in today's business world. If you're not willing to collaborate and work in teams, you've got to find, you've got to find a way to do that. You got to find a way to, to work together and like you said, trust that we're going to do the things that we need to do and do it competently.

Ken Harms [00:39:03]:
It's a shame that that's reality because I think way too many people, unfortunately, way too many young, young boys and men spend time on video games. And you know, when I, when I would be recruiting and interviewing people for, for work, I frequently ask them did you ever play any sports? And if so was it a team sport or an individual sport? You know. Well, I was on the golf team. Like eh, I'm talking more like were you on the football team, the basketball team, the baseball team where you know, you had to work together as a team. And I found that folks that came from team sports were a little bit better equipped to step into the business world and understand what teamwork and collaboration all about. There's very few, I guess maybe a coder or a programmer can work independently but in today's construction market it is all about collaboration.

Tim Newman [00:40:02]:
Yeah, yeah.

Ken Harms [00:40:03]:
And so they have to, young people have to get that. And I see a good thing is a lot of schools that have construction management and contracting programs, they will enter competitions and in that competition they, you know, Sacramento State, Chico State, Cal Poly, they send school teams to this competition. So they, and then they get a challenge from us. Typically from this is like the association of General Contractors or cmaa. They'll, that's the Construction Management association of America. They'll, they'll send these teams. Here's the rfp. Now put together your solution and then make a formal presentation to us, the selection committee.

Ken Harms [00:40:50]:
So that is great, great experience for people. So those, those like CM programs, they're

Tim Newman [00:40:56]:
getting

Ken Harms [00:40:59]:
exposure to collaboration and teamwork.

Tim Newman [00:41:02]:
Yeah, yeah. I just want to make sure that you know, our listeners here, we're not knocking the younger generation. What we're just pointing things out and the whole idea that. And can. I don't know if you agree with this, but my guess is that you do. It's incumbent upon us as the older generation to teach them how not only how important it is, but how to work in teams, how to be able to go from not liking it, not wanting to do it, to being very good at it. But you all as a younger generation has to be open to that as well.

Ken Harms [00:41:38]:
100. I'm not knocking the younger generation either. I, I've got respect for them. And one, one thing I always remind people is that we have a completely volunteer military. And so it's. And they've been, there you go, you know, and they're doing a hell of a job. So you're right, you're spot on. It's incumbent upon us to coach and mentor the younger people that are coming in.

Tim Newman [00:42:04]:
Yeah. And to me, it is what it is. And just like the whole idea you said earlier, our education system has let our younger generations down with how we communicate on a number of things. Not to go too far in the weeds, but now we have to make up for that. And that's just part of it. You know, it is what it is. And Ken, I don't know if you know this stat or not, but I think it's by the year 2030, there's going to be more Gen X and millennials in the workforce than boomers. Excuse me, there's going to be more millennials and Gen Z in the workforce than boomers and Gen X Y.

Tim Newman [00:42:56]:
And so that's, we can't run from it, we can't hide from it. That's not a way forward. We have to help them prepare to be able to be those types of leaders that we're talking about, like what we need.

Ken Harms [00:43:08]:
Right, exactly.

Tim Newman [00:43:12]:
So if you could give one piece of advice to a 24 year old engineer, architect, or young professional who's brilliant but invisible, what would you tell them?

Ken Harms [00:43:23]:
They're brilliant but invisible. Invisible. Hopefully they're working in the office. But one piece of advice I would share with them is some of what you and I have talked about, that instead of lecturing them, I would try to coach them and say, you know, been where you are and to get ahead, let me give you a few tips. And you need to, you know, based on my observations, I think you need to work on some of the softer skills. So let's get you into a class for public speaking. Let's. And the best thing you can do, much like an athlete, is to get that muscle memory.

Ken Harms [00:44:03]:
So practice, practice, practice. Try to get opportunities where you can speak either here on the job or in your community, wherever it might be. Toastmasters would be a great example. Spend some time at Toastmasters. Spend some time reading some books. I have one that, you know, I'd like to sell to them. You know, that would be the advice. I wouldn't, I wouldn't lecture them, but I would say, as someone, you know, given my age and my career, I see where this might be headed for you and for you to be even more successful than you already are.

Ken Harms [00:44:42]:
You're a talented young person. But if you want to really get ahead, practice the soft skills, including communication, teamwork, collaboration, public speaking and so forth. Find opportunities where you can shine and practice those skills.

Tim Newman [00:44:57]:
Ken, for those listening who want to build trust, win more work, and actually get better at presenting under pressure, where can they connect with you and learn more about what you're doing?

Ken Harms [00:45:06]:
Oh, thank you, Tim. I have a website, it's www.kenharms.com so I have a chat there. You can reach out to me. Everything that I do in terms of coaching and trainings are available. The book is available on Amazon, Building Trust, Winning Work and all my contact information is also available on my LinkedIn profile. You can find that if you search for Ken Harms.

Tim Newman [00:45:34]:
Well, Ken, I'll go ahead and put those links in the show notes for everybody so that they have them. But thank you so much for spending some time with us today. I really appreciate your insight and I think it's very, very valuable for everybody, but especially the younger generation. Gen Zs.

Ken Harms [00:45:49]:
Thank you so much. Yeah, cool. Thank you so much, Tim.

Tim Newman [00:45:53]:
Take care. We'll talk to you soon.

Ken Harms [00:45:54]:
Okay, bye.

Tim Newman [00:45:55]:
Be sure to visit speakingwithconfidencepodcast.com to get your free eBook, the Top 21 Challenges for Public Speakers and How to Overcome Them. You can also register for for the Formula for Public Speaking course. Always remember, your voice has the power to change a world. We'll talk to you next time. Take care.