The DNA of Engagement: Building Emotional Connections in a Digital World

Tim Newman [00:00:07]:
Welcome to Speaking with Confluence. A podcast is here to help you unlock the power of effective public speaking. I’m your host, Tim Newman, and I’m excited to take you on a journey to become a better public speaker. Let’s welcome our next guest. David Poulin and Sarah Jane McKechnie met in a rehearsal room many years ago and decided that they’d met the person who’s going to get them through the 6 month tour that lay ahead. The last 3 decades have been an amazing journey. I don’t think either of them expected the extraordinary journey. They’ve acted with everyone from the Royal Shakespeare Company to Paramount Pictures and in films with Shirley MacLaine.

Tim Newman [00:00:42]:
They’ve even performed for hen Henry Kissinger at a Secret Service entourage. They’ve created storytelling shows where they’ve cooked chicken for the audience and improvised a storytelling course. Now they apply the science, art, and craft of story to the communication challenges that their clients face in industries such as professional and financial services, engineering, pharmaceutical, retail, hospitality, tech, and the public sector. David and Jane founded this the StorySpotters with one single aim, to help save great ideas from extinction by giving people the story based tools to help them survive and thrive. Their book, the DNA of engagement, is out October 17th. We’ll show you how you can do it too. David and Sarah James, welcome to the show, and and thank you for spending some time with us today.

David Pullan [00:01:29]:
Thank you so much, Tim. That’s a really lovely introduction. Yeah. Thank you.

Tim Newman [00:01:33]:
Well, I’ve I’ve been looking forward to this, you know, David, since we connected, you know, through mutual fund, back back in June. Yeah. And, you know, as we’re gonna get through, to today, your your your book and your system is is really a game changer for, public speakers and business leaders.

David Pullan [00:01:51]:
Thank you, Tim. Thank you, Tim. I was really I mean, it’s lovely to hear the feedback that that you’ve given us already and it’s love lovely to to hear what we’re hearing from people because we’re using it with clients already. It comes out October 17th on Amazon, but we’re using it already with clients and it’s just great to to hear people saying that it is a system that works for them, so thanks.

Tim Newman [00:02:10]:
Yeah. It’s an exciting time for you guys right now. Like you said, you’re you’re already using it with your with your workshops and your and your business partners. It’s coming out in here in in a couple weeks.

David Pullan [00:02:18]:
Yep.

Tim Newman [00:02:19]:
You’re you’re doing a book tour. How how much fun is it to be you guys right now? And and are you actually able to sit back and enjoy?

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:02:24]:
It’s tiring.

David Pullan [00:02:27]:
Well

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:02:28]:
It is tiring.

David Pullan [00:02:29]:
It’s tiring. It it’s a really interesting process, this whole book writing thing, because we were sort of the people who never wanted to write a book because, you know, who needs another business book? And and there was a there was a there was a strange set of circumstances that came about which which led to us writing the book. And there’s the writing and then the whole lead up to the marketing is is, wow. You sign up for it. You’re just not quite a 100% sure what you have signed up for, which is it’s like Sarah Jane said, it’s both exciting Yeah. But it’s really it’s Yeah. You gotta gotta have your game face on.

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:03:04]:
And we’re not as young as we used to be.

David Pullan [00:03:06]:
We’re not as young. Look. We always think we’re like Stater and Waldorf and the Muppets.

Tim Newman [00:03:11]:
Well, you you know what? What’s gonna happen though is is when when it when it goes on sale on October 17th, understand this doesn’t stop.

David Pullan [00:03:20]:
No. You have

Tim Newman [00:03:20]:
to keep Yep. You’re gonna be doing this for a long time.

David Pullan [00:03:25]:
Well, funnily enough, the week after the the the week after launch, we’ve got 2 trips booked in. We’re going to Zurich and Switzerland to to see a few people who were and then we’re going to Dublin at the end of the week, so that could be a that could so so, yeah, you’re absolutely right. So, I mean, it’s, I I think, sort of a good well, actually, I get a previous guest of yours, Chris Chris Fenning, who you who you add on the show, he, I I was asking him about this, and he said, you know, David, about 30% of your time is, you know, we’re we’re gonna become booksellers for the next Yes. For the rest of our lives.

Tim Newman [00:03:58]:
For the rest of your lives, yes. It’s it’s now

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:04:00]:
it’s never really stopped. Yeah. No. The the the overarching emotion, though, is excitement, I think. I mean, we’re we’re we’re a, we’re really proud of ourselves because we’ve actually managed to get this out. But also, it’s exciting. It’s really exciting. Exciting seeing the difference it’s making

Tim Newman [00:04:18]:
for people.

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:04:18]:
And and and and it already you know, we’ve we’ve run workshops recently, and people are the the the the really go with it. They run with it, and they can see how it can completely change the way in which they they drive that collaboration in business and the and the engagement. And that’s that’s, exactly what we wrote it for, really.

David Pullan [00:04:42]:
Yeah. And actually, for your audience, Tim, I mean, that’s an interesting one as well because, you know, we work at pretty senior level here in the UK and in Europe, but but there are various things. And one of the reasons we did it is how do we help younger, younger people, you know, sort of like in their twenties up to their thirties who are maybe making that transition from education into the workplace or, or getting their, I’m going to say their first leadership role. But one of the things we talk about in the book is the fact that everyone is a leader at different points in their lives because, you know, you might be you might be leading a, you know, a, you know, a a fortune 500, but you might also be leading your family on the decision about where you’re all gonna go on holiday during the summer. So, I mean, it’s a we all take we all take leadership roles at different points in our lives and, you know, seeing the way that the the the DNA of engagement is really helping in that is is is is throwing, actually.

Tim Newman [00:05:35]:
Yeah. Especially, you know, if it’s tar if we if we start, you know, targeting, you know, the the younger generations, the the college age and and young professionals, you know, we we could save them 40 years of of of heartburn. Oh, yeah. You know, just learning how how to to interact and and talk to people. Oh, totally. Yeah. To to move things forward.

David Pullan [00:05:55]:
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. It’s about bringing people together. I mean, it’s,

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:06:00]:
It’s it’s it’s seeking it’s about seeking that collaboration, I think. And and even if you’re even if you’re talking upwards, you’re talking to somebody more senior. It’s it’s having that courage to to, allow yourself to be on that level with them within this, within the that conversation and be able to take part in it and and literally feel that you’re collaborating within a conversation rather than just following on. I think I think Exactly. Or or dictating is, you know, fantastic other work. So I I that that that’s that’s really the fundamentals of it. And it’s, oh my gosh, you know, needed, I think, so much in this world today where everything seem you know, decisions seem to be made quite quickly or without due, often without without real understanding about what the what what your audience really needs. Yeah.

Tim Newman [00:07:00]:
Right. Right. It or or, you know, without thinking about the end use end user in mind, or or or really how how you’re building connections with the people that you’re communicating with.

David Pullan [00:07:12]:
I think that’s right. It it it’s interesting. I mean, you know, a a number of people introduce us as the storytellers because, you know, that’s it’s an easy thing to do that, but but our name, the story spotters, was was very was very carefully chosen because, you know, if you go on LinkedIn, you can throw a stick at LinkedIn, and there’s a 1,000,000 storytellers out there. But, I mean, what we what we’re very interested in is how people, a, spot their own stories. But to Sarah Jane’s point about collaboration, how do you how do you get people to coauthor and spot the stories which are gonna drive things forward, which could be on a on a domestic family level or it could be on a team level or a corporation level. It’s getting one of the quotes we well, the quote we start the book with is by Howard Schultz when he was I think it was when he was CEO at at Starbucks saying that if you if you don’t get people engaged, this is me misquoting him, but the the gist of the quote is if you don’t get people engaged in the future strategy and get them to coauthor that strategy, then you’re gonna lose great people. So how do you engage people and get them to coauthor the story for the future?

Tim Newman [00:08:18]:
Yeah. And and if you if you think about that that whole idea there, that started the the the idea of going and grabbing a coffee and talking and and and talking about, you know, the the the partnerships or collaborations or friendships or whatever to to move that forward and that, you know, knowing that that really kinda makes sense and and and build builds that synergy.

David Pullan [00:08:41]:
I I think you’re a, I mean, Tim, you must find this in your work with with with students at Georgia State and stuff. I mean, you know, none of what we write about is rocket science. I mean, it’s, you know, it’s how we’ve managed to survive and thrive as a species because we form groups, and we we solve problems and we get on with stuff and we, you know, we we make life happen. But too often in those stressful situations, which often corporations are under or families are under or, you know, or a situation where somebody is going for that for that big job they really wanna get to, then then all of the things that make us human beings, that ability to connect and really work together, they just fly out the window mainly because of stress or time constraints. So so none of what we’ve written about is is is exactly you know, it’s not like we’ve reinvented the wheel. We just we just pointed to where the wheel is. We’ve Yes. Yes.

Tim Newman [00:09:33]:
It’s right over here.

David Pullan [00:09:35]:
It’s here. It’s the wheel.

Tim Newman [00:09:38]:
So, you know, with with your with your gift of of acting and you knew you could help others, but was was there an moment where you realized that, you know, that you could use your your gift of acting and and story spotting to be able to help others? That’s

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:09:54]:
yours. Yeah. Well, that I think that was many, many moons ago. And, I, we I I we I we have a son, and and after I he was about 3, I think. And and I thought, I can’t I can’t do this. I was offered a tour, a a play that I to tour around the country. And I thought I can’t do it because I didn’t want to have the the that worry of having somebody else looking after him and maybe hiring a nanny or, you know, having him in the dressing. I mean, it’s it was just I didn’t I I’d been in too many situations where, other actresses that I’d been working with had had that sort of difficulty of never quite knowing.

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:10:48]:
And if your child gets sick and then, oh my gosh. So I, I decided then that I would I would try and use my ability you know, my what I knew, which was in a way how to how to connect with people and

David Pullan [00:11:04]:
Light up and

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:11:05]:
and and light yes. All those sorts of things. And I joy and it was at the time in London, really, when, actors were just beginning, really, to go into business in a in much more of a a professional way to help people, communicate and to help people. Initially, it was, I guess, it was doing presentations, but then it kind of expands out from that because it’s it’s basically the, you know, how you actually communicate and how you show up, basically. And so I started working in that field and loved it. I absolutely loved it.

Tim Newman [00:11:48]:
You did

David Pullan [00:11:48]:
very successful.

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:11:49]:
Yeah. And and and then it wasn’t long, was it, before you decided that

David Pullan [00:11:54]:
Well, yeah. I mean, I did I decide or was I pushed?

Tim Newman [00:11:56]:
No. Maybe you were pushed. No.

David Pullan [00:11:58]:
I think I think Sarah Jane actually actually Sarah Jane realized that I had a skill for it before I did. And then there was a set of circumstances. I dabbled a bit, but sort of in a sort of a less corporate fashion. I was teaching at a at a drama school, and I created a course for business people. It was like a weekend course called your voice is the business, and it was basically a a a, you know, a voice course and about how to use your voice well. But there was one exercise on storytelling that everyone remembered at the end of that course. And and a couple of years later, Sarah Jane wasn’t well, and she had to drop out from what was a very, very big project for us as a family, financially in terms of what it was gonna mean for us as as as a family. And she rang up the person in charge of the project and said, listen.

David Pullan [00:12:46]:
I I can’t do this because I’m not well. I’m not gonna be able to come and do the gig. And and they I wasn’t only the exact words, but I I it was something like this. They said, I imagine it was, do you know anyone who could? And I saw her look at me and go, yes, I think I do. And suddenly I found myself on a on a plane to the middle of Europe sort of talking to these people about it was just after the time of, it it was just after the time Enron collapsed. And so there was Oh, boy. Solved. Yeah.

David Pullan [00:13:11]:
So there was the whole Sarbanes Oxley stuff that came in and, you know, the different regulations around controls and business. And I was gonna help a team that were pitching to a massive insurer about some Sarbanes Oxley compliance work, me, an actor, going there to this building. Anyway, I flew in there. And during the morning, I was listening to these men in suits say words that might have well been ancient Greek. I mean, I had literally not a clue what I was they were talking about. And at about 10:30, I said, listen, let’s stop, have a coffee. Let’s see where we’ve got to. Let’s have a break, clear our heads.

David Pullan [00:13:45]:
And I ran to the to the toilet and I called Sarah Jane and I said, get me out of here. This is a terrible mistake. I have no idea what these people are talking about. And she said, well, if you don’t know what they’re talking about, they probably don’t know what they’re talking about either. So do what you always do. Get them to tell a story about what it’s gonna look and feel like working with them, and that will then earn them the right to talk about their facts and figures and everything. And I went, oh, I could do that. I went in there, and and I thought, wow.

David Pullan [00:14:12]:
If this is this is what the game’s about, I could I can I should do storytelling with people?

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:14:17]:
Well, I think I think it’s it’s it’s not quite that they didn’t know what they were talking about, but that It

David Pullan [00:14:22]:
wasn’t clear.

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:14:22]:
No. No.

Tim Newman [00:14:23]:
But it

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:14:23]:
would the the the the the the clarity of the story around how they were going to present it to that particular client. It wasn’t

David Pullan [00:14:30]:
clear. Well, actually, that’s an interesting point. Did they so one of the things we talk about in the book is the concept of same paging. You know, you can you can talk in fact. So you you know this, Deb. But you can talk in facts and and and you talk in facts and everybody hear hears those facts, and they they they turn them into a story of what it’s gonna look like to them. So, I mean, I take your point, but but I would imagine that even within in that team, until they told the story together, about a word,

Tim Newman [00:14:58]:
it’s gonna

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:14:58]:
be No.

Tim Newman [00:14:59]:
I agree.

David Pullan [00:14:59]:
It could be a different interpretation.

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:15:01]:
No. Completely agree. Yeah.

David Pullan [00:15:03]:
Story puts people on the same page, which is, you know, it’s everyone leaves going, I get it now. What’s it gonna look like working with you? And I think that’s a that’s a really important, point for any of your listeners who may be sort of breaking into the work world of work or sort of going for that promotion, what’s it going to look and feel like working with you? And story you can’t out fact a story. Stories exist in people’s heads. Your CV, your resume isn’t going to out fact that that story. You’ve got to tell the story of what it’s gonna look and feel like working with you.

Tim Newman [00:15:36]:
And so for for young people, was I I work with a Dan, I told you this when when we talked before. I’m working with a with with a, a lady. She’s incredibly smart, and she she’s older older than my normal audience. Let’s just put it this way. And she has such trouble telling stories, telling her story. And, you know, when I when I translate this into, you know, working with my my, you know, my my students and the other people I’m coaching, why why do they have such trouble telling their own story? To you know, telling or seeing things as stories? Do you

David Pullan [00:16:16]:
wanna take that?

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:16:16]:
Well, I’d you know, I’d I think in general, people are, let me see. That there there is that feel when if they’re going into a situation where they feel that they’re a bit of an underdog because they’re the ones that are having to, impress somebody, that they go in with that that kind of feel, then I think that, it it it can, lower one’s confidence around how you talk about yourself. And so I think there’s lots of second guessing about, oh, well, they won’t be interested in that or they won’t be interested in this. Or I’ve got to come over as a professional or I’ve got to come over. Like, I’ve got to make sure I I show them that I know all these. But, you see, to me, I I don’t necessarily think that you have to do that. I think what you have to do is show them who you are

Tim Newman [00:17:09]:
Who you are.

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:17:09]:
By the way in which you by the way in which you explain how you’ve solved problems before or what what whatever is relevant to the That’s interesting. Conversation. It is. It’s making it relevant to how or what you have, if you’re going in for an interview or something, what interests you

David Pullan [00:17:29]:
Mhmm.

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:17:29]:
About why you quite like to work in this kind of situation. Ask questions as the interviewee. Ask questions. You know, you’re you’re not and I think people people genuinely think that it’s a kind of like often when they go into interviews, they think it’s a one way thing that they have to impress in order that somebody but actually, if you try to impress, I think often you your real the real personality goes and you start yeah. And it’s it’s somebody else that’s talking. It’s somebody you think that they want to listen to instead of the real you.

David Pullan [00:18:10]:
I think what I’d add to that as well, Tim, is is that people sort of think they they get told you should tell a story, but no one wants to hear your story unless there’s a point in the story. Right. So Right. So as you’re being very clear about what is it you’re trying to prove here within the book, you know, we we talk about a thing called the prep structure with sensible point, reason, example, takeaway. And, you know, for your the person you’re talking about, I mean, there is an example in the book which where which we’ve talked about about somebody who we did work with who they were in a going for a big interview, and the point they wanted to make was that they were a self starter. They weren’t they were very happy to get their hands dirty. They really liked solving complex, problems. That was the point they made, and they actually put that up in front and said, so tell me a bit about you.

David Pullan [00:18:55]:
Well, I’m people tell me I’m self starter. I like solving problems. Not very happy to get my hands dirty. The r is then the reason, and the reason would be from everything I’ve read about you, that’s exactly what you’re looking for. She then went on to tell the story about she how she basically renovated her house totally by using YouTube videos and she’d done the plumbing and the plastering and the wiring and everything like that. And she told me afterwards that the panel that was and then the takeaway was basically just to reiterate and say, so listen. I mean, that’s basically who I am, and I think it’s what you’re looking for. And she told me afterwards that the panel in an hour had barely asked her about anything to do with with work or her business case for getting the job because they were too interested in plumbing and plastering and wiring.

David Pullan [00:19:42]:
So, you know, they that’s what they remembered. Oh, the woman who did the YouTube video. So as long as your story has a very clear point, which is probably something that is gonna solve somebody else’s problems or needs, then it ties in very much to Sarah James saying people think I shouldn’t tell my story because it’s arrogant. But if you’re telling your story to serve, to help somebody else’s help them overcome a problem or make a decision they’re having a problem making, then your story serves a huge

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:20:11]:
It does. And and I think as well that it it shows whoever you’re speaking to so much more of your personality and so much more of what you’re made of than if you just, if you’re if you’re if you sort of stick to the CV way of answering.

David Pullan [00:20:28]:
I think the word show is perfect to a show, don’t tell, isn’t it?

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:20:31]:
It completely is. Yeah.

Tim Newman [00:20:33]:
Yeah. And and it builds that it builds that interpersonal connection. Right?

David Pullan [00:20:36]:
Yeah. Absolutely.

Tim Newman [00:20:38]:
It it it makes you makes you a real person and not an employee or an applicant. You’re you’re David. You’re Sarah Jane. You’re

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:20:46]:
Yeah.

David Pullan [00:20:47]:
Right? Absolutely. Yeah. And it’s it’s, you know, there’s a there’s a friend of ours called David Hutchins who is in in Smyrna in in Tennessee, I think it is, and then in in he’s a he’s very big in the story world, and he talks about when he’s working with when he’s working with organizations, he talk about talks about geographical feedback. And so, you know, the the, the geography of feedback in storytelling, one of the geographies is is what do you infer about the person through what it is they’re telling. And if you’re if you’re telling your own story, then as Sarah Jane says, you can just see it. You can you can see them light up, and you could you could actually see the audience leading in and connecting. And as I said, these this panel were very interested in plumbing and plastering and not too interested in accounting for an hour.

Tim Newman [00:21:36]:
So so let’s take this a step further because, you know, you talk you talk a lot about, you know, the art, craft, and science of a story. What does that actually mean? And and can you give us an example, you know, walk us through that that kind of process?

David Pullan [00:21:50]:
I’ll do the boring bit. I’ll do the science. And we don’t we don’t you know, there’s a lot of there’s a sorry anybody’s a scientist out there. But, I mean, it’s you know, there’s a lot of stuff about there’s a lot of stuff you can read about the neuroscience of the brain neuroscience of the brain, of course. That’s what neuroscience is. And, you know, the way that story affects the brain and the way it lights up different areas of the brain and the way that we need to connect and the you know, there are things like slightly outdated theory on triune brain theory about how we need to connect to people. So there is a scientific basis for for why to tell a story, but that doesn’t tell you how to tell a story, which is really what to do with the art and the craft of it, isn’t it?

Tim Newman [00:22:34]:
I don’t

David Pullan [00:22:34]:
know if you’ve got any stuff on the art and craft.

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:22:37]:
The art and craft.

David Pullan [00:22:38]:
Yeah. But what what Well, the crafting, I mean okay. So we I hate it.

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:22:42]:
You were which The craft. Fit do you want?

Tim Newman [00:22:45]:
Here’s the book.

David Pullan [00:22:46]:
I know. The craft is putting your story together, and the art is then telling it. I mean, I don’t know.

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:22:52]:
I mean, I think I think that, do you want me to go into the,

David Pullan [00:22:56]:
You go where you want. When have I when have I ever been able to stop you?

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:23:01]:
I think I think the thing about I think the thing about story is that you’ve got to bring you’ve got to bring the the whoever is listening, you’ve got to bring them into their world. You’ve got they they they have to be able to see it. The the and there’s the the classic things, you know, that anchor it. First of all, it’s really important. You’ve you’ve got to earn the right to tell a story. So you have to make a point, you know, where you have to say whatever this is is relevant in the conversation. And then you can say, oh, I remember when blah blah blah. And then I think that various things for stories are a time so that people can anchor it in their heads.

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:23:40]:
As soon as you can it be last September or or yesterday morning or whatever it might be. So there’s a there’s some kind of connection in that way. And then then you need you you need a place as well so that somebody every time you say like a time or a place, what happens is that people will have their they might not if you say, you know, I was in the kitchen, everybody has a kind of image of a kitchen. And so what happens is that the other person’s mind is being used because they it’s a natural thing for us to want to create that picture in our own heads in order to understand. So time and place. And then I think dialogue is important in it. So, and I remember saying I remember saying to the old lady on the street, and then you actually do some verbatim and you’ve got an you’ve got character, an old lady on a street. I don’t know quite what story I’m telling here, but I mean,

Tim Newman [00:24:42]:
it’s that. But I’m

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:24:44]:
in the kitchen and then But

David Pullan [00:24:45]:
I’m fascinated because

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:24:46]:
I’m in the and

Tim Newman [00:24:46]:
there’s an old lady on the street.

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:24:47]:
But the

David Pullan [00:24:48]:
but She’s not there now.

Tim Newman [00:24:49]:
But in in in the the the, I

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:24:52]:
mean, just an ordinary story of going to the shops. Yesterday, I, you know, went to the shops and I was trying to find some tomatoes in the supermarket. And there were absolutely no tomatoes to be had at all. So, I thought, well, I’ll have to make something else for supper or whatever. And just as I was leaving the supermarket, literally, this chap came in through the supermarket doors and he had about 8 crates of tomatoes on his, shopping trolley. And so I said, right, are you selling those? And he said, yes. So I I went in and I got my tomato. I was able to get my tomatoes.

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:25:34]:
That is the most mundane, boring type of story.

Tim Newman [00:25:38]:
But

David Pullan [00:25:38]:
For somebody who needs a tomato Yes. It’s pretty important.

Tim Newman [00:25:41]:
But the

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:25:41]:
but the interesting thing is that this you still have

David Pullan [00:25:44]:
They say tomato.

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:25:45]:
Oh, very sorry. Yeah.

Tim Newman [00:25:47]:
No. But to to But the interesting Tomatoes, tomato, potato, potato, whatever. We’re we’re good

David Pullan [00:25:51]:
at it. Hoping no. If it

Tim Newman [00:25:52]:
if it’s food if it’s food, I can figure it out. I mean, with

David Pullan [00:25:54]:
the with the with with you.

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:25:56]:
The it I so it’s sort of a deliberately boring story because of the bit but what’s

David Pullan [00:26:00]:
It lights up the brain.

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:26:01]:
But it lights up the brain because Mhmm. Immediately, you’re you have an image of a supermarket. You have an image with somebody with a trolley. You have an image of tomatoes. That’s what happens. It makes the brain, and, you know, there there are we we can’t have images of sort of concepts. It’s much more difficult. Yeah.

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:26:19]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But specific like that, which is why story works.

David Pullan [00:26:23]:
And to quote Hamilton the musical, it puts you in the room where it happens, which is which I think is really it’s very important because people relate to it, and they remember it. We’re fascinated by humans in in in inter interacting with each other, which is what the dialogue bit is. But it’s, I mean, the reason and, structurally, so the craft of it I mean, you know, we call this the the DNA, and the DNA stands for dream nightmare action in this case, not deoxyribonucleic acid. I mean, it’s a dream nightmare action, and it’s the reason why we called it that is because we were we suddenly thought this is a pattern that we live our lives the whole time. We all have a well, we this it happened literally 20 minutes ago, half an hour ago when we were on this. We we had this dream. We’re gonna talk to Tim on this on this podcast, and it’s gonna be really, really lovely, and it’s gonna be very simple. Tested everything.

David Pullan [00:27:12]:
That was my dream. It’s gonna go great. We’ll have a really nice time. Nightmare, the volume didn’t work. And so we’re going, Tim, what are you saying? And we sort of like you know, the nightmare that got in the way of the dream was that. And so the action was desperately trying to figure out how to sort this out until, guess what, volume switched. So, you know, I should turn that up. So this pan of dream, nightmare, action is the story that we live in our lives, and it’s it recurs right throughout our lives on a daily, hourly, minute basis, whatever it is.

David Pullan [00:27:44]:
And to tell a story to somebody, to Sarah Jane’s point of earning the right to tell a story, you have to connect to their dream. So back to our woman who was trying to get this job and so to say, listen, I, you know, I was reading your your literature and how, you know, what you were doing with the business. It looks like you’re really looking for some sort of people who are looking for who who are real self starters who really like solving problems, and that’s me. I mean, you know, let me tell you about when I did my house just with YouTube videos. And so she’s she’s connected to their dream. She’s telling her story. She will throw in some nightmares in there of the things that she had to overcome in order to be able to do what she does because all good stories are about change. They’re all about sort of overcoming something in order to become something else.

David Pullan [00:28:33]:
Otherwise, it’s just a string of facts again. And so this dream, nightmare, action connect to somebody’s dreams, then then tell the story about the actions you took that overcame the nightmare in order to achieve that dream. And it’s a it’s a very powerful model.

Tim Newman [00:28:49]:
Mhmm. It really is.

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:28:50]:
It’s what we do naturally all the time in the pub, in the in a cafe, wherever we are, in a bar, we’re friends. You know, we’re we’re we’re constantly telling stories about or or what’s happened to us and and other people’s stories trigger you telling a story. That’s is what is what makes a lot of our conversation, naturally conversation. That and that is what binds us. That’s what helps us know more about each other and connect with each other, etcetera. And yet somehow, what happens in business, we tend to want to talk in a completely different way, which is total to professional way, which is totally unnatural. And so I think what this DNA of engagement is about really is is bringing the it’s bringing the human into into business, basically, into the way in which we we into into the way that we see what being professional is all about.

David Pullan [00:29:52]:
I completely and I and I think by doing that, it gives people a competitive advantage. There’s not enough people are doing that.

Tim Newman [00:30:00]:
Right. And if I’m wrong, that’s where you all, you know, really talk about how the DNA, you know, builds trust, drives engagement, and influence change.

David Pullan [00:30:09]:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it’s interesting. I mean, the trust word is is is really big for us, actually, because, I mean, too often what happens is people, you know, they go in and they talk about the problem and then people, you know, without without earning the back to Sarah Jane’s point about earning the permission, you build the trust. You earn the permission by connecting to somebody else and saying basically that you’ve understood them. What we all want as human beings is to feel that we’ve been heard and understood. And so to sort of say, listen, I’ve heard what your dreams are here and what you’re trying to achieve with with with what you’re doing, and that will be great when that all works, but this is what could get in the way of it. So let me tell you about how I can you know, the but be the nightmare.

David Pullan [00:30:52]:
I mean, we always we always say a good story needs a good kick in the butt. So, you know, it’s a it’s it’s, you know, get that butt in there and say, but this could get in the way of it, so let’s talk about how, you know, what what I could do could actually help you, and that’s the action bit. So you’ve got that dream. You you earn the trust by by listening and connecting and showing that you’ve understood somebody’s dream.

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:31:16]:
I think this is the I think I think really showing that you understand is probably the most important thing. That’s the foundation of communication, really.

David Pullan [00:31:27]:
It was one of Stephen Covey’s 7 laws. Yeah. So I seek to understand.

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:31:31]:
Yeah. Seek to understand, I think, is so important. And it’s not and a bit and it’s also seek to be understood as well. And Yeah. And, the the telling a story or about a situation or or a a a a a a a it can be quite short, you know, explaining how you feel about something within that. You know, you put an emotional an an emotion the emotional side to a story. It’s much easier to do that. And because you can say, if you’re telling a small example about how you’ve enjoyed doing something before, You you can be you can say, you know, I really, really love doing that.

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:32:10]:
Is that, you know, this that that particular job, I knew that that was what I wanted to you know, you can you can you can put your own feelings and emotion, and and I think that that gives that gives the person that you’re speaking to a real understanding about how much you care.

David Pullan [00:32:27]:
Yes.

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:32:28]:
And if we because I think that so many in business, everybody’s working so hard. It’s so quick. There’s lots of, you know, deadlines, all that kind of thing. And often communication can fall down because people people wrap out orders or they’re very, they’re very sharp with with what is necessary to do. And you and and they don’t really show how much they care.

Tim Newman [00:32:57]:
Yeah.

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:32:58]:
They care about they care about the outcome, and they care about the fact that that you are comfortable doing whatever they’ve asked. And I think that this is a story or or kind of using story techniques can really help that and and smooth that communication well. So that it’s good leadership, basically.

David Pullan [00:33:20]:
There’s a wonderful ex client of ours who who’s now a friend. I mean, a habit of making clients and friends, which is quite nice, actually. She’s called Angela Brav, and she worked for Big Hotel Global Hotel Group. She now lives in Atlanta in Georgia, and she’s, I think she’s doing something with the city of Jacksonville down in Florida, helping the sort of, like, the regeneration of different different, building within within within Jacksonville. But she she one of the things that she said that we actually quote in the book was, you know, one of her one of the tasks that she really thought was most important was the ability to be able to read the temperature of the room and then change the temperature of the room. And when you read the temperature room of the room, that means that you’ve listened, you’ve heard, you’ve understood. And then changing the temperature of the room is about people when when you leave, people think it, oh, something happened there, didn’t it? And that’s because of the stories you tell, the emotion you bring to your stories, the the the way you tell those stories that people think something happened there, didn’t it? And I think that’s a it’s it’s it’s an act of bravery to do that, but boy oh boy, it works.

Tim Newman [00:34:30]:
Yeah. And I and I that’s a that’s a really good point because as you’re saying that, I’m thinking to myself, and and that takes a special person to be able to be emotionally intelligent enough to be open to listening and, put let’s just say put that ego aside. That that leader put that ego aside and and to be open to listening to to the feedback, good good, bad, what what what have you, and be able to, conceptually make that change to so that, you know, everybody understands, oh, wow. Hey. This person really is listening. This person really does care, and there really is going to be some change or some some movement forward, whatever that needs to be.

David Pullan [00:35:11]:
I mean, that’s why I mean, with with within the book, I mean, you know, it’s divided into 3 parts, really. There’s the the structure of the narrative. The the the first one is about the the struct the how you construct the DNA narrative, which keeps people on track with your message. Then it’s about how you tell the stories that support that narrative. But to your point, Tim, probably, I think the most important thing is the way that you listen to other people’s stories and draw them out of you because that does you know, it’s a it’s a that’s a gift. I mean, to actually give people the time and the space where they feel that they can tell you their story and that you wanted to to at least be changed by that is a that’s that’s a real act of human connection.

Tim Newman [00:35:53]:
Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. That’s all I mean, it’s that’s and that’s what this can do if if you if you’re actually open to doing it. Right? It it it Yeah. It’s actually open to to to to listening in and and and being vulnerable. You know, as an example, you know, I’m I’m teach teaching a class I’m teaching a class this semester that I’ve never taught before. And I’m not it’s not that I’m not comfortable teaching.

Tim Newman [00:36:20]:
I’m just not, you know, necessarily sure that that what I’m doing is teaching what I’m supposed to be teaching. But when I go in and I and I talk to them, I say, okay, that, you know, this is this is what we’re doing. And I and we’re talk we’re actually talking about presenting and telling stories. And I’m I’m Yeah. Asking them, I said, you know, what is it that I am doing that’s connecting with you? And they Yes. Start listing things off. And I say, okay, now, if you see that I’m doing that, when you start talking to people, you have to find your your style and how you connect with those people using this framework. And start and start doing that in in everything that you do.

Tim Newman [00:36:59]:
And it’s not gonna happen overnight, but No. You have to start practicing it and start doing these things for it to for it to take hold.

David Pullan [00:37:07]:
I think I I I love that. I mean, because it’s, I mean, it’s this is a human thing that we’re talking about. We keep saying that, don’t we? I mean, there are, you know, you know, How to Win Friends and Influence People, Stephen Covey. There have been books written about this throughout the ages, but, I mean, it isn’t a cookie cutter 1 +1 equals 2. I mean, there are there are steps you can take, and indeed we’ve written about it, but it has to be authentic to you. And I think that word, you know, how do you make that your own? And I think that that that word of vulnerability that you use there, Tim, is very well well said because I think that’s, you know, the daring to do you know what? I I, we we were both actors for many years, as you said right at the beginning, and I I I always remember one of my my teachers saying just before we left, and he said, believe you’re the best, but believe it believe it sensibly. And I thought, oh, that’s great. I mean, it’s just like you’ve got to have confidence in what you do, but never forget you’ve got stuff to learn.

David Pullan [00:38:12]:
I mean, the day that you the day you forget that, you’re done. That’s end of game, end of story.

Tim Newman [00:38:20]:
Yeah. Yeah. You know, so in in the I don’t wanna give the book away because I want people to buy the book. Right?

David Pullan [00:38:26]:
I want people to buy the book too. Oh oh, can we okay. Can we tell you why we want people to buy the book, Tim? Can we actually mention that? Because it’s Yes. Yes.

Tim Newman [00:38:32]:
We want people to buy

David Pullan [00:38:33]:
the book because we all want people to buy the book. But we got some really exciting news, which is, there’s a another client stroke friend who, lives in Switzerland, and, she is the CEO of a foundation called Be That Girl, which is, it’s an organization that’s, that that funds NGOs helping women predominantly in Sub Saharan Africa, lead more self determined lives, really. And there’s one particular NGO in Rwanda called Generation Rise who have a number of scholars in the tertiary in tertiary education who are then moving into the world of work and, you know, taking up their first leadership roles, getting their first jobs, really, going back into their communities. And what we’ve what we’ve agreed with Otadia, who’s the CEO of Be That Girl, is that for every verified Amazon review we get in our 1st week of sales, we’re gonna donate an hour of coaching time to those scholars, at Generation Rise. So, I mean, you know, apart from anything, you can buy for 99¢ on Kindle in the 1st week, and, you know, you you will send us for out for an hour to to to coach these these young women. And so one of the that’s the thing is, you know, we make a living from storytelling, but there’s also a I think we’ve both got to stage our lives. We wanna give something back as well. Definitely.

Tim Newman [00:39:58]:
Yeah. I I I I think we again, this is just Tim talking here. I I I think we have a responsibility to to to be able to give back and and to help people, you know, not necessarily change a lot in life, but but help them improve or get better or, in in in this case, you’re you’re doing really, really good and important work.

David Pullan [00:40:21]:
Thank you, Tim. It’s an interesting one, isn’t it? Because, I mean, I mean, we could get very philosophical about the whole thing, but you you know, I know. I mean, our son is sort of like at the back end was just before the whole sort of smartphone and everyone had had a, you know, an iPad and stuff like that, and everyone was on X or Facebook or whatever it was. And so he he he he’s grown into that, but there is a generation now that has grown up with it. And, you know, I’m always surprised when people say, oh, it’s just talking to such and such. And, no, they weren’t. They were on WhatsApp or Telegram or something. I mean, it’s you know, so to actually to actually sort of remind people the work that you’re doing and the work that we’re doing is, you know, these are human skills, which if we’re not careful, they will become very, very rusty, those tools that we naturally have.

David Pullan [00:41:10]:
And, you know, with the again, this is a much bigger debate, but with the rise of AI and all of those sorts of things, the thing that will make us keep us relevant as human beings is maintaining and developing those very human skills of connection.

Tim Newman [00:41:26]:
Yes. Yes. And, you know, it it’s it’s so important. I was again, I was just talking about this. We we didn’t have cell phones growing up when I was when I was a kid. There was no cell phones. There was there was there was no pagers. There were there was the only phone that you had was the landline.

Tim Newman [00:41:47]:
I I remember having to, you know, you know, where you put your finger in and and do the number. And if you messed up, you had to start all over. You get to the last time when you messed up, you have to start all over again. And when you wanted to talk to somebody, you actually had to talk to them. Yeah. And now and, you know, and I catch myself sometimes too saying I talk to somebody when I just send them a text. I say, no. You know? I text them.

Tim Newman [00:42:10]:
And and this is what they said. And and there’s so much that gets lost in this digital communication. You know, tone, inflection, attitude, facial expressions. And so we we we we don’t know what we don’t truly know what what is meant when we when we’re communicating that in that manner, and it’s so important to have that that face to face or or that that interpersonal connection to truly learn and understand from other people.

David Pullan [00:42:37]:
Yeah. Everything’s fast now, isn’t it? It’s fast food. We don’t sit down and have meals together. We don’t sit around and share those stories. I mean, it’s it’s it’s and as a result to your point there, I mean, it’s everything is everything is therefore open to interpretation. And, again, people are telling their own story about what it is they hear rather than really knowing what the true story is. It’s a Mhmm. I mean, it’s, you know, we we we at the end of the book, we we we talk about the ethics of storytelling, and there’s a, you know, just about sort of, like, really thinking because these are powerful tools.

David Pullan [00:43:09]:
And, you know, the as, you know, you’re very powerful tools. And, you know, we have to be very clear about why we’re doing what we’re doing. And are we doing it for the good, or are we sort of trying to, you know, manipulate in some shape or form? So, I mean, that’s it’s a it’s a very human and very powerful set of skills we’re talking about here. They’re not that you know, they always get called the soft skills. They’re not soft.

Tim Newman [00:43:31]:
No. And Yeah. No. And it’s you know, in in the book, you you tell a story about about a nightmare scenario when you’re cooking a brisket, and and things like that are they they transcend continents. Right? I knew exactly what you were talking about. I knew Exactly. Myself. I’ve been there.

Tim Newman [00:43:49]:
I’ve been there. I’ve done that. I’m I’m

David Pullan [00:43:51]:
sure your brisket’s very deep then.

Tim Newman [00:43:55]:
You know, people are coming over. They’re gonna be here soon. What are we gonna do?

David Pullan [00:43:59]:
I know.

Tim Newman [00:43:59]:
And Oh, what are you gonna do?

David Pullan [00:44:01]:
That’s the nightmare. What do I do?

Tim Newman [00:44:03]:
Mhmm. It is. What what are you gonna do? And and you’re and and I’m not gonna tell a solution, but but you it it was perfect. It turned out well. Of course, it did. Yeah. And you you you there’s a number of great stories in the book, a number of them. And and that one stands out.

Tim Newman [00:44:18]:
And again, I don’t wanna give the book away, but the the theme of Jaws is perfect. And I actually used that last night when I was talking to my wife.

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:44:26]:
Yeah. You

Tim Newman [00:44:27]:
know, we’re talking about the end, but therefore and I said, if if Brody had just done that, Jaws would have been 5 minutes in and out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:44:35]:
Yeah. Yeah.

David Pullan [00:44:36]:
We love that. Steven Spielberg would be a janitor.

Tim Newman [00:44:39]:
Yeah. Exactly. And then the other story that really stood out is the story about George, the the rugby official. Yeah. Yeah. And and again, I don’t wanna give these stories away, but great I mean, and, you know, I come from a sport background. So that was another one that I’ve I’m I’m really leaning into. And I played rugby and it was like

David Pullan [00:44:59]:
Okay. We

Tim Newman [00:45:00]:
we I I know. I I I’ve you know, the there’s that connection. Yeah. Now I I understand that you can’t put all the good stories in the book.

David Pullan [00:45:12]:
You can’t, though. It’d be a very long one.

Tim Newman [00:45:14]:
Ones that exactly. What what are some other ones that that were that were won the list but didn’t quite make the cut?

David Pullan [00:45:22]:
I think there’s one that I often tell about a client. You know? I mean, so so, historically, we’ve often we, you know, we’ve applied our work to big corporations who are, you know, who are who are trying to pitch for work. So it might be one of the big four pitching for an audit for a global client or a consultancy firm trying to win some work. And, of course, that’s a lot of fact based. And so what our job really is to help them get those facts into context and find the stories that bring the facts to life. And one of the things that we often talk about is is, you know, what’s the what’s the thing you’re gonna leave behind in the room, and, you know, what’s the what’s the last thing you’re gonna say that’s gonna be make people remember you? And, I was working with a with a with a with a a a a team in South Africa who were pitching to work with a big bank, and, the the lead partner who was on on this thing, they said, listen. Is there anything you wanna say before you leave the room? And we worked on this story because he told it to me. I said, this is a brilliant story.

David Pullan [00:46:23]:
And he said, basically, it’s a story about when he he was in London and he went to German Street, which is where all of the, you know, the big tailor made suits get made and everything. And he went in there and he’d ordered these suits and he went up to the counter to pay for them, and he handed over his credit card and the machine just started smoking. He was completely out. I mean, he was out of money and he it was really embarrassing because he was in a very high class establishment, and he was a a man of, you know, means. And so hang on. What do you mean? My credit card isn’t working. And so he rang up the, he rang up the office in South Africa, and they said to he said to Melissa, I’m in this terrible situation. I’m trying to pipe pay for these suits, and my credit card is I must have maxed it out because, I mean, we’ve been traveling a lot, and I just maybe haven’t paid in enough already to to clear it.

David Pullan [00:47:10]:
And the woman was very calm, and she said, yes. I I I understand, sir. Yeah. Yeah. Listen. How much do you need? And he said, well, about £5,000 would cover it. And he said, when would you be back in Johannesburg? He said, I’ll be back next week. Listen.

David Pullan [00:47:22]:
Just sort it out then. It’ll be absolutely fine. And he told this story and it went through and he gave his credit card over and it was paid and everything. And he told that story, and then at the end, he said, you know what really impressed me about that woman who worked for you because it was the it was the credit card of the bank that he was pitching to work with, He said, I just love the way that she listened to me, and she was just really pragmatic, and she wanted to solve the problems that I had. And, you know, she she didn’t get flustered and everything. And she said he said, what I want you to remember is that woman and remember that that’s what I want to give to you when I’m working with you. Thanks very much. We look forward to the decision.

David Pullan [00:48:00]:
And and and if I know a little, you know, about a week later, they they they rang up and said, alright. Let’s talk fees. And they ended up getting the piece of work, but it was just a really personal we’ve all been in a situation, maybe not buying high end suits, but we’ve all been thinking, hey, where

Tim Newman [00:48:16]:
am I gonna get

David Pullan [00:48:16]:
the money from this? And, you know, suddenly something happens. It’s a problem that’s overcome, and it’s just a story which I really when I heard him tell me that one, I thought you gotta use that eColiz.

Tim Newman [00:48:28]:
And And and you don’t really see that that good that that kind of service all the time either. So it it to to see that that it was it it was seen and acknowledged and and appreciated.

David Pullan [00:48:41]:
Exactly right. And if he just left and said if they said, listen, is there anything you want you want to end on? He said, yes. I want to listen to you and serve you and solve your your problems pragmatically. It does. That’s a list. Who’s gonna remember that? But but putting that putting putting those, you know, those skills, those values, those behaviors into a story, especially one that he’s he’d observed their people doing, made it, you know, was really powerful. I’m not saying it won the pitch, but certainly helped.

Tim Newman [00:49:10]:
I’m I’m sure it helped. Sure it helped.

David Pullan [00:49:12]:
Yeah.

Tim Newman [00:49:14]:
So is there anything else that we haven’t talked about today that you think our listeners should should know about?

David Pullan [00:49:20]:
When are we coming for your brisket, Tim? Oh, boy. The the,

Tim Newman [00:49:24]:
Honestly, the the the best time for that is probably May or June.

David Pullan [00:49:28]:
Okay. It’s a date. It’s going in the diaries right now. Right. I’m a challenger. I’m told I’m not allowed to say diary. A friend of mine who actually, a guy called John Cleck, who’s a retired Navy SEAL, he always laughs when I say who who’s writes at the beginning of the book. He, whenever I say or put something in the diary, he says, what are you, a 15 year old girl? He said, it’s a calendar.

Tim Newman [00:49:50]:
And that that’s what a SEAL would say.

David Pullan [00:49:52]:
Yes. Exactly right. He’s a he’s a very funny man. He’s also a stand up comedian. He’s a he’s a

Tim Newman [00:49:57]:
great guy.

David Pullan [00:49:58]:
He’s a he wrote a he wrote a, a little forward for us, didn’t he? Yeah. And when he when I read the forward, I said, Charlotte, am I serious about how to put this in the book? He said, yeah. Because I mean it. It’s what I said. I said, I’m I said, if I put that in, I’m gonna have to get Bradley Cooper to play me. If if this book gets optioned, Bradley Cooper’s gonna have to play me because it’s a you make me sound a lot better than I am.

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:50:21]:
I think I think going back to your the sort of message, I think, that I want to reiterate really for your for the the people that will be listening to this, is is that, you know, when you go out into the world of work and you’re you’re, interviewing and deciding, you know, where you want to go. And and interviews can be really, I think they can be horrible, really. I mean, the the it’s it’s the lead up to an interview, isn’t it?

Tim Newman [00:50:52]:
Mhmm.

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:50:52]:
That is it that is often the worst. And you’re thinking, oh, you know, what do I say? And I and I think that one of the most important things is is be, you know, really think about why you want to do whatever you’re going up. What what what what is the job that you’re doing? Why why

Tim Newman [00:51:10]:
do you

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:51:10]:
want to do it? And think it’s it’s more emotion. Think about emotionally. Why do you want to do it? What does it mean to you? And then think about think about the, when you’re thinking about that, is there a story that that you think that will support

David Pullan [00:51:30]:
that? Demonstrate your behaviors

Tim Newman [00:51:31]:
and values.

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:51:31]:
Yes. Exactly. Because I think people are you know, people come out of, of university or whatever, and they’re they’ve got, you know, all their qualifications and everything. But what is it about you as a person Yeah. That they’re really going to go, I like you because I like what you’ve said. And and the best way of getting that, over to somebody is is by telling a story about something that shows your values.

Tim Newman [00:52:03]:
Yeah. Yes.

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:52:04]:
So I that that I would think is probably, you know,

David Pullan [00:52:09]:
It creates that psychological safety and intimacy that people feel they’ve got to know you. It’s back to your your wordy vulnerability, Tim. Yeah. Don’t be afraid to give your experience as long as your experience is proving the point that you’re there. So you you are there to serve. You are there to serve and to help. Correct.

Tim Newman [00:52:25]:
Yep. Yeah. And I and I I think, you know, we have to do a better job in in helping, you know, young people and young professionals getting to that point and fig and and teaching them out to figure out who they are and and what their values are and what qualities that they have and and what they want want wanna be. Yeah. It’s just my my opinion and experience that right now, young people and young professionals haven’t really given that a lot of thought. Yeah. They just kinda okay. You know, I I grew up.

Tim Newman [00:52:59]:
I go to school. You know, go to here you go to high school, then you go to college, and then you get a job, but we don’t really do a whole lot to help them figure out who they are and what they really think they

David Pullan [00:53:09]:
need. And life life just sort of happens to people, but you

Tim Newman [00:53:12]:
can be

David Pullan [00:53:13]:
a bit more you can be a bit more intentional about it. Right.

Tim Newman [00:53:16]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that’s a a a great way to do that. Yeah.

David Pullan [00:53:22]:
You know, that people with

Tim Newman [00:53:23]:
the DNA of engagement and because you you do have to start thinking about other things and and how to communicate, you know, in in a way that bit that builds that that trust and engagement.

David Pullan [00:53:32]:
So Exactly. You start by thinking about the other person and their dreams and then connect what you do to to to help you insult the nightmares through the actions that you take, and it’s, yeah. No. We’re we’re we’re loving how it’s it’s it’s being received. And, you know, the work that you’re doing, Tim, is is is exactly in the in the same area, and I think it’s it’s important work.

Tim Newman [00:53:54]:
Yeah. I I appreciate that. And and I can’t tell you how much I appreciate you all spending some time with me this morning. I I I know this is probably the one of the busiest times of your life, and I’m so excited for you. It’s

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:54:06]:
Have been. Thank you.

Tim Newman [00:54:07]:
Yeah. I follow you. Yeah. I I low key follow you. This is what the kids call it. These days, I low key follow you, you know, on, you know, on LinkedIn and and and those types of things. And I I am so excited for you because it is this is a great time. And I hope that, you know, you can take some time to enjoy this even though as as busy as you are because it’s it’s it’s a great accomplishment.

Tim Newman [00:54:30]:
And and what you’re what you’re talking about, what you’re doing is is gonna change people’s lives.

David Pullan [00:54:34]:
Thank you so much, Tim. Really, really appreciate it. And I have to say this has been a I don’t know how long we’ve been talking for, but this this is this has felt like felt like a bit of a holiday. I was, you know, to be able to spend some time and just just swap some stories with you.

Tim Newman [00:54:47]:
Well, David, not many people would say that. Trust me. Spending an hour, Tim, is not necessary.

David Pullan [00:54:52]:
You had me a brisket, Tim. You had me a brisket.

Tim Newman [00:54:55]:
So so so where can people find you, and where where can they buy the book?

David Pullan [00:54:59]:
The book will be out on Amazon on, you know, on on all our in Amazon in all countries on October 17th, Thursday, October 17th. It’s it’s live. They you could already we, I mean, we we are the story spotters at the storyspotters.com. The book has its website already, which is called the DNA of engagement.com, so you can find out more about the book there. And then probably the best place to get in touch with both of us is on LinkedIn. I mean, please do follow us there or reach out and connect with us because we we we we love meeting new people.

Tim Newman [00:55:33]:
And and you share a lot of great information on on LinkedIn as well. So I I I want people to understand that, I mean, it’s it’s not just necessarily about the book, but the some of the other information that you’re sharing with some of the things that other people are doing as well. Because again, you know, that’s what that’s what we do. We, you know, we we we help other people. It’s it’s amazing.

David Pullan [00:55:53]:
Exactly. Some

Tim Newman [00:55:54]:
of the, you know, some of the things that you’re sharing and and just, you know, for our listeners, just so that you understand, you know, we got connected you and I got connected through through, like, say, Chris Benning, who isn’t at even though what we do isn’t rocket science, isn’t an actual rocket scientist.

David Pullan [00:56:09]:
Yes. He

Tim Newman [00:56:09]:
is. It’s He is.

David Pullan [00:56:11]:
Let’s try. To be

Tim Newman [00:56:12]:
which is great. But but, again, you know, there’s you can find so much good information by by following, you know, you know, different people. And and and and and and David and Sarah Jane, you know, you you are are some of the bet best shares of information that that I’ve seen in a long time.

David Pullan [00:56:29]:
Thank you, Tim. Thank you. Really yeah. No. Thank you. That’s all I have to say.

Tim Newman [00:56:34]:
Well, well, good. Thanks so much for for spending some time with us, and and I’ll I’ll obviously be in touch, and we’ll talk to you soon.

David Pullan [00:56:41]:
Thanks, Tim. And good luck to everyone out there.

Sarah Jane McKechnie [00:56:43]:
Yes. Bye. Take care. Bye bye.

Tim Newman [00:56:46]:
Be sure to visit speaking with confidence podcast to join our growing community and register for the formula for public speaking course. Always remember, your voice has empowered change the world. We’ll talk to you next time. Take care.