Unlocking Powerful Communication with Juanita Wheeler

Tim: 0:38

Welcome to Speaking with Confidence, a podcast that’s here to help you unlock the power of effective public speaking. I’m your host, tim Newman, and I’m excited to take you on a journey to become a better, more confident communicator. Juanita Wheeler has coached over 100 TEDx speakers, in addition to CEOs, entrepreneurs, authors, researchers and changemakers to deliver presentations worthy of their great ideas. Juanita is a public speaking coach, speech writer, the CEO and head of curation at TEDx Brisbane, and the founder of Full and Frank. She has over two decades of speaking experience, is an adjunct lecturer at the University of Queensland and is a global fellow with the Atlantic Fellows, based out of Oxford University. Juanita has three master’s degrees two in business and one in social change leadership. Juanita, welcome to Speaking with Confidence. I’m really excited to talk to you today. You know, I think you and I are, you know, built the same way. We think the same way and our approaches, I think, are very, very similar. So welcome to Speaking with Confidence podcast.

Juanita: 1:42

Thank you so much, tim. I absolutely agree, and it is a delight to be here.

Tim: 1:48

One of the things that really intrigued me about you is you know you’re the CEO of TEDx Brisbane, and how did that come about and what does that actually mean? Because you know, I think everybody knows TED and TEDx and they see these things, but I don’t think they really truly understand how it works or how it happens. So how did you get to be involved in this?

Juanita: 2:11

Well, when it first started, I was just like everybody else who loves ted talks. I loved them. I watched them online. Uh, they were a really important part of my day or my week. I could get gems of wisdom from people who were experts or had lots of experience in a really short and digestible amount of time because I was a busy person. So they were great, uh, and I obviously talked about them a lot more than I had realized I did.

Juanita: 2:36

Because one day when I was doing my first master’s, one of my fellow students said to me you know those talks you’re always talking about. Yes. She said well, I hear there’s going to be a local event here in Brisbane, a small one. It’s going to be at South Bank TEDx South Bank Women. There are only a hundred tickets. You know you have to apply to be in the audience. Shall we do it? And I’m like yes. So I applied and I was lucky enough to be offered one of the spots in the audience. It was.

Juanita: 3:04

It was just the time was getting close that I actually started to get a little anxious about it, because I’m like this is a bit high risk, because I love TED talks, and what if I go to this local thing and it’s a bit ho-hum. Is that going to diminish my love of TED in any way? But I really shouldn’t have worried. It was amazing. I say to people when they ask about our events, I said if watching a TED Talk is like watching a really amazing music video, then coming to our events live is like going to a rock show. That’s the difference. So I loved it in the audience and actually about six to eight weeks later there was a confluence of a number of factors, but that was one of them I quit my job in corporate and left and went wow, those people are inspiring and they’re doing these incredible things with their lives. I don’t want to sit in the audience and watch that person. I want to be that person who is doing bold and audacious things in the area where they’re an expert.

Juanita: 4:01

So the second year they asked me to come back as a volunteer because I’d stayed in touch. It’s a volunteer-run organization at the TEDx level, so I’m like, absolutely I’d love to volunteer. So that was the next year and then the year after, they actually asked me to come and speak. So in 2014, so a decade ago I gave my own TEDx talk, which was based on the topic I was working, the space I was working in at the time, which was about charity and the way that charities are funded. And then the person who ran the TEDx and we’d grown to know each other and work each other through volunteering and speaking um called me up and said she had this amazing career opportunity to do a contract job in London working, uh, for Richard Branson which obviously you say.

Juanita: 4:50

You say yes to that right um said you know, we had a team meeting and said you’re the person that we want to take over and run it. So I did. 2016 was my first event and shortly after that, before our 2017 event, we got the title bump to a citywide license and became TEDxBrisbane, which is very exciting, and we’ve been running it ever since.

Tim: 5:16

That’s an amazing story, you know. Again, I don’t think people understand. I didn’t know until TalkMe that it’s a volunteer organization and it’s pretty much volunteers that do everything and plan everything. And so you started this, but you got on stage. Did you have a fear of public speaking, or do you have a fear of public speaking? And what was that process like in preparing to do a TEDx for you?

Juanita: 5:46

Well, the TEDx talk was a fair way down my public speaking journey, but when I first started I absolutely had a fear of public speaking, and I still. Public speaking is not my favorite thing. Um, I’m a screaming introvert. So if you think of like the introvert extrovert spectrum, I’m like way down this end of the introvert. Um. So and people are often shocked when I tell them that, or they don’t believe me I’m like no, because this is many years of skill building in the making. I’ve worked on it and learned the skills. So you don’t believe me. I’m like no, because this is many years of skill building in the making. I’ve worked on it and learned the skills. So you don’t feel like I’m an introvert, but I am and it just goes to show.

Juanita: 6:23

Sometimes people will believe you know the myth that only extroverts make great speakers and nothing could be further than the truth. You know public speaking are skills. It’s like plumbing. You know, you learn how to do it, you practice a lot and the more years of experience you have, the better you get Public speaking just the same. So my situation was that I was my preferred mode and it’s part of why speech writing is also still something that I do.

Juanita: 6:48

A lot of is in text. I love writing and articulating my ideas that way, but what I was finding in my career was I would put together really quite kick-ass and compelling proposals in writing and send them by emails and they just weren’t getting read. Newsflash not everyone likes reading documents, no matter how fantastic they are. And then I would go along to a meeting or I would see people in the hall and there would be somebody who would be prepared to get up and champion their idea verbally and say it in a quite compelling manner. And even if that idea was not as good as the one I had comprehensively researched and put in writing, there was an engagement factor. You know, they were championing their idea, they were prepared to step up and do it. And I watched time and time again those ideas getting up and you know it frustrated me and I, you know, whinged about it for you know a nanosecond and then realized this is not helping me. So I went, okay, well, I need to learn how to do this as an introvert, as somebody who doesn’t have this skill, I wasn’t born with it and went okay, cool, so there’s got to be a way that people are persuaded, because I didn’t just want to flap my gums, I actually wanted to get the outcome if I was going to put in the work of learning how to speak well.

Juanita: 8:08

So I did all the research. You know, I skipped all the research about being in. I didn’t want to be an actor, so I didn’t need the drama lessons. I didn’t need what to do with your hands or how to vocally modulate. That wasn’t what I was looking for. I was looking for, tell me, the neuroscience. So I was looking into the neuroscience. I was looking into behavioral persuasion theories.

Juanita: 8:33

I looked into the neuroeconomics, the science of what makes people make decisions and say yes and then used myself as the guinea pig to say okay, which of these strategies? How do I apply them to public speaking? Because the speaking that I’m interested in, the speaking that I coach people in, is strategic, persuasive speaking. So what is going to get somebody to say yes? So if you want to be a great speaker who gives really great and entertaining wedding toasts, that’s superb. You don’t need me. That’s not my area of expertise. I am very much about. Let’s sit down before you ever talk and work out what is your target audience, what do you need them to say yes to what will convince them. And now let’s craft that to make them say yes. You know, I the flapping the gun thing. There are people who can help you with that.

Tim: 9:28

That’s not my area of expertise you know, I I love that because that’s my exact answer and I’m so I’m going to take your words and I’m just going to start saying that exact same thing. You know, you and I have talked about this a little bit. You know, I think, the fear of public speaking. I mean when you talk about public speaking, just all of a sudden, before they even think about it, all of a sudden, you know, the blood pressure goes up, face turns red and, oh my gosh, their stomach gets upset, all these types of things. And the reality is we do public speaking all the time, every day. Like you said earlier before we started recording, public speaking starts when you walk outside your house 100%.

Juanita: 10:12

I say it to people all the time. They’re like I could never do public speaking. I’m like do you ever leave your house? A hundred percent. I say it to people all the time. They’re like I could never public. You know, I could never do public speaking. I’m like do you ever leave your house and speak to another human? They’re like, yes. I’m like, well, I don’t know how to tell you this, but you’re already public speaking, so that’s fine. The public speaking you’re probably doing is flapping your gums. Sure, but let’s now look, if you want to do public speaking strategically to persuade people, so you can champion your ideas and get them to say yes, and these are just skills.

Tim: 10:40

I can teach you how to do them. Um, I say, I say it’s not hard, it’s not rocket science, it’s not rocket science, but sometimes it is hard. It is hard work to, because it’s a change in mindset. We have to think a little bit differently about how we’re communicating, right, you know? Because think about it from this perspective and I’ve used this example a couple times over the last three or four days when you go to a restaurant and the waiter or waitress comes up to you and asks you what you want, how are you going to respond? There are some people that I know that say, well, can I have this, or I want this? Right, when you say, can I have this? Well, you’re asking them permission to do something. But when you tell them this is what I want, the whole tone or attitude of the conversation changes. Right, you’re not asking for permission, you’re saying this is what I would like from you, and so that in and of itself, is a mindset shift.

Juanita: 11:59

No-transcript yes, and I think the mind shift set shift is is so important. One of the things that I’ve learned, uh, from using myself for many decades as a guinea pig and someone who was a nervous and anxious speaker and also coaching over 100 TEDx speakers now, many of whom would say that they are extraordinarily nervous and anxious speakers, particularly when you’re playing at that level is that you need to rethink how you think about fear and anxious speakers, particularly when you’re playing at that level is that you need to rethink how you think about fear. So what has become an absolutely foundational pillar of the coaching and the speaker coaching and strategy work that I do is, you know, put into a short catchphrase is own your awesome. So you know, I’m always telling people and we do this work at the start, before we start talking about a script or what your strategic objective is or all of those things that come before you ever talk about stagecraft is that people need to be prepared to own their awesome. And that’s usually where, if we get that right at the very beginning and we do that transformative piece of work, then all of the other things become easier, dramatically easier learnt over 20 years and you know all these speakers is when people say they’re afraid of public speaking.

Juanita: 13:36

When I used to say I’m afraid I have a fear of public speaking, you’re not afraid of public speaking. I’ve yet to find somebody that is actually legitimately afraid of public speaking. What they’re describing when they’re talking about, you know, I’m afraid I might look. You know I might forget my words. I’m afraid that I won’t get on the stage. I’m afraid I’ll fall down. You know I might forget my words. I’m afraid that I won’t get on the stage. I’m afraid I’ll fall down. You know, on the way up to stage which if that’s going to happen to anyone, it’s going to do me, because I’m a screaming klutz. If I make it actually to the stage in the microphone, half the work is done.

Juanita: 14:07

But what they’re actually afraid of is not that they’re afraid of you know a range of things. They’re afraid of a range of things. They’re afraid of being embarrassed in front of respected peers and colleagues. They’re afraid that if they do it and they in their mind fail, then it will just affirm any bad thing that has ever been said to them by a partner, a family member, a negative boss. They’re afraid that they’ll do it and they’ll discover that my idea is not as good as I think it is, because someone will naysay it.

Juanita: 14:40

You know these are all very different fears, um, but what they are, you know, I’m afraid that people will think I’m unattractive or focus on my body type, or I’m afraid that I’m afraid that, and it’s all external judging factors almost always, um and so when we sit down and do the work and go, look, when you say you’re afraid of public speaking, and we sit down and do that transformative piece that goes cool, and then we realize you’re afraid by of being judged by this person, this person and I’m like usually it’ll start with cool they’re going to think that, let them, we’re not going to care, we’re just going to let them. But now let’s think about. You know, you’ll think about what if everything goes wrong? And we do that with the same.

Juanita: 15:22

What if everything goes right? What if everything goes right? And why are you letting some external person judge you? What if you trip over? You know what if this happens? What if this happens? But your idea is still fabulous and you pick yourself up and you do it really well, and then we list all the things that could go wrong, like some people often will say, one of their biggest fears is they’ll forget their lines. I’m like awesome, you’ve just made my day, because that is a hundred percent in your control. So what we do with your script, how many hours you put into it before the event, whether or not you set your alarm to get up one hour earlier for 30 days beforehand to memorize that thing, that is 100% in your control. So we do the work. That mindset piece first, because every single thing that comes after is made easier once you address this perception that their fear is actually of public speaking, as opposed to fears of something else that they just conveniently label because that’s what society does as a fear of public speaking.

Tim: 16:30

Exactly, and would you say that that is the biggest mistake that people make in their preparation Is the mislabeling of their fears? Not being in the right mindset, would say that’s, that’s the the biggest problem I think it’s.

Juanita: 16:55

I think there is no one biggest problem. I think public speakers, like humans are. Absolutely every single one is unique and different. So what somebody? You know, some people may legitimately have no fear of public speaking and frankly, that’s a problem. Um, because they’re cocky and they’re egotistical and they’ve skated by and charisma all their lives so they’re not putting in the work. You know, it’s the. I’ll just slap together a powerpoint and jump up on stage and I’ll think about it the day before what I’m going to say um oh um. You know that’s. That’s a totally different problem, but it is a it’s a problem.

Juanita: 17:31

Some people may not, may have really great self so they don’t have fear per se, but maybe they haven’t put in the work. So I think there are different fears, different problems, but I think the biggest ones that I see recurring, that you could kind of put into groups. One is definitely having the wrong mindset, which is either I’m not going to put in the effort because I’m just going to dial this in, or I have a fear of public speaking, which actually is a fear of something else, and as soon as you own it and understand it, we can come up with a strategy about whether that’s just let them and we’re just going to let them, or cool. Here are the things you’re worried about. Let’s write down every single one of them and then come up for a strategy to mitigate that. So that’s, you know, fears, um, an absence of planning for when, things, what you know, planning and preparation to make sure that whatever you’re worried about let’s not just let that fester in the back of your mind. Let’s come up with a plan for every single thing that could go wrong, down to like zombie apocalypse. Let’s have a strategy, because then it’s a strategy, it’s a plan, you know what you’re going to do, so it’s not taking up free rent in your brain where you could otherwise be focusing on preparing for your talk.

Juanita: 18:51

I think the other thing is just not putting in the work. That is a huge problem. If you see really lackluster public speaking. It’s almost always an absence of effort. Um, the people who you know every year, for 10x, I will invariably get at least one person who is having a meltdown, you know, hyperventilating into a brown bag or locking themselves in a toilet stool saying I can’t possibly come out True story, and I will invariably have to get them from that stage to the stage and you know there is no common denominator about how experienced that speaker is. By the way, sometimes that’s a first time speaker, though that’s far less likely. The people who it most often is is a person who has done lots of talking before, thought they could dial this in and it’d be like every other talk, didn’t put in the rehearsal time, didn’t put in the prep time, and the one comment that happens every single time, regardless of who this person is, whether they’ve spoken at 2 000 events, events or 10, is I should have rehearsed more. I should have prepared more.

Tim: 19:59

So what’s the difference between preparing for a TED Talk as opposed to like a regular presentation? Obviously watching them, they’re different, but what’s the difference in the preparation?

Juanita: 20:12

Well they can be incredibly different. The first thing that I would say in a single word when people ask me, that is the stakes. That’s, that’s the difference. Um, and so, whether it, you know, we have things where a talk might. It doesn’t have to be on a 10x stage.

Juanita: 20:28

But if you get invited to give a talk and you know that’s your target audience there, or there’s somebody in there who can, you know, green light your funding for something or come on board as an angel investor or change a piece of legislation, or you know. You know Oprah is not a TEDx talk, but if you got invited to go and speak with Oprah, you know the stakes are enormous. So the stakes should directly reflect how much preparation you put into it, how much effort you put in it, how strategic you become. That’s totally different if you’re giving a talk at a local event and there is a small number of your target audience there that could say yes to what your strategic objective is. And, by the way, if there is none of your target audience there, why are you even?

Juanita: 21:16

speaking at the event go do something else, you know, if your people aren’t there with the power and authority to say yes to your strategic objective and that doesn’t matter, whether it’s about buying a product, buying a service, investing in your company, changing legislation, it doesn’t matter It- doesn’t matter but what is your strategic objective?

Juanita: 21:37

If they’re not in that room, why are you? But if it’s low stakes, then you know, maybe a little bit less preparation is fine, but as soon as you get to something that is high stakes. So if it’s a pitch, and you’re pitching to people who could give you a million dollars and change the trajectory of your company, that’s big stakes Put in 100 hours. If it’s a TEDx talk, you know, and that has the potential to consolidate your position as an expert in this particular space, you know that’s game changing At least 100 hours worth of effort. If you’re not interested in putting in 100 hours worth of work into it, you know you don’t want to come and talk to me. I’m not your person Because I’ll just be very frank with you and say, yeah, no, you know you’re not serious, you didn’t come to play, go find somebody else.

Juanita: 22:27

So really the difference between that is stakes and, uh, the other thing is really important, uh, in that kind of category, is a signature keynote.

Juanita: 22:35

So I work with people as well who aren’t doing a tedx yet, or maybe they have done one, but they they want to develop, uh, they’re at that stage in their business where they really want to consolidate their standing as an expert in this space.

Juanita: 22:48

Maybe they’re looking to then launch a book, launch a podcast, you know, really be the go-to person in that, and so they want to put in the effort to develop that signature keynote that they can go and deliver prestige keynotes and at different conferences on different continents and be the go-to person for this. That’s a game-changing thing You’re looking to really consolidate so that again, high stakes, put in the effort and get it right. So one of the best things about those people, for example, who I’ve worked on the TEDx talks or the keynotes with, I will then later see, you know, chapters in books or I will see them speak on you know chapters in books or I will see them speak on a radio interview or in a podcast and they will use lines and sections directly from their talk or their signature keynote, because I never write and never work with a speaker with one talk in mind, like ever.

Juanita: 23:44

We work out what is the script, and I section the scripts as we work through them like this is a section about xyz, this is the section about xyz. So once they’ve memorized and learned them, they’ve got them for life. Anytime they get asked a question about that, anytime they’re preparing another talk, and they just you know, I tell them, think of it as, uh, ingredients in your pantry. You can cook a whole range of different recipes for that, whether it’s a snack or a really huge and elaborate meal, and so many different meals based on these ingredients, and then think of each individual talk as a different recipe. So that’s the way I do it, because I don’t ever like people to put in time and effort on that kind of scale that they can’t reuse over and over again for the rest of their life.

Tim: 24:36

So that piece is really interesting to me, as you’re preparing for that. It’s being able to use that in multiple different settings, and I like that. But what I really like is the whole idea of preparation, for for me, research and preparation just like you it’s key. It’s key to everything that we do. You know if, if you’re not going to do the work, why are you, why are you even bothering to to to put your name in for something?

Juanita: 25:07

So I, so I think people have to understand that to be good at anything, you have to prepare and you have to practice over and over and over again 100% and I think don’t get me wrong I have clients that originally came on board with me as what I call SOS clients, people I’ve known professionally, who will leave it to the last minute maybe it’s a week out and will say, oh my gosh, I have this event. I promised to speak at it ages ago. Life happened, work happened. I haven’t done a single thing or I’ve got a really dodgy first draft. I only have this much budget. I can buy three hours of your time. Can you do what you can and, and if I can, I can fit it in? I I usually will, particularly if I can. I know them and I know they’re. You know they’re not half-assing it, but you know life has happened, um, and you, you give them your time and you elevate it, but at the same time, you’re’re like, just so you know, this is the SOS version, with the time you have available, but you should come and learn how to do all of this properly. And it’s usually very funny because I think it’s hilarious the people who usually engage me this way. They’re like one of them, jodie McDowell.

Juanita: 26:22

She’s actually one of the testimonial stories on my site. She was like I’m a week out and she’s a one of the testimonial stories on my site. She was like I’m I’m a week out and she’s a highly experienced ceo and she’s done lots of public speaking, but she just hadn’t done it in a little while. I mean, she’s a ludicrously confident woman and she just said, at this point in time, I’d rather quit my job than do this big in a week, which you know, I get it was tongue-in-cheek, but it shows the the level of, oh, you know, and this is a highly, highly experienced and competent woman. And I’m like, yeah, cool, send it to me and I’ll spend a few hours on it.

Juanita: 26:54

But she’s like I’m never public speaking again after this. This is just a one and done, because I’m talking to her about hey, I’m just noting this, this will be going to your section for the future anytime you answer this. Let’s get it right. So anytime you get this question, we’ll do it. She’s like you don’t have to worry about that because I’m never, ever speaking again.

Juanita: 27:10

I’m like mm-hmm, I’m like just letting you know, jodie, 100% of people who come to me in this way say this is the only time I’m ever going to do this and I’m never doing it again. And currently it has 100% value rate in that they come back to me and as soon as they know how to do it and can see that it will work, then they’re like, oh my gosh, I need to go and get more speaking gigs. She’s like, no, no, not going to happen. And uh, the message I got from her after she’d walked off stage, she said it was like the most amazing thing. She said I walked off stage and I just wanted to turn around like it was amusement ride and say, can I go again?

Tim: 27:45

So yes, that’s awesome. I was going to ask you what would you say is, I wouldn’t say your most difficult person that you work with, but the most challenging? And I guess it’s those people that are just like that saying you know, I’m never doing this again, never doing this again.

Juanita: 28:13

And then you know, I guess they see that it’s not as bad as they made it out to be. They’re absolutely not the most challenging in any way. They’re quite delightful because I know that they’re going to say it now. I’ve years and years of experience. I know they’re going to say I’m never doing it again. I’m like mm-hmm, yeah, okay, cool, not a problem. And I, you know. And no, that’s not true. Well, not so far Never had somebody who then doesn’t say at the end that was great. Now that I understand how this works, I want to do it more and more and more.

Juanita: 28:37

But I suppose the most challenging would be people who have been trained in a different way. So I select all of our TEDx speakers and we have input from our team. We watch people for up to about two years, usually before. So we’re listening to every podcast. They’re on every news article. We’re reading at least the executive summary of their and the top and tails of their PhDs or their books. So we really do a very deep dive to make sure that the idea is great before we’re going to put them on the stage. I think one of the things that makes us, you know, pause for a moment before having somebody speak or bringing them in to speak on our stage because it just might not be a good fit. Is anyone who has clearly been coached to speak in a particular way? So, for example, because they don’t want to undo it, they don’t want to let it go. So you know, we have certain types of speakers, like people who speak as though they’re presenting an afternoon special on so everything it sounds like this and you’re like, oh my gosh, and you know that’s a lot of work.

Juanita: 29:50

Um, people who have had some kind of theatrical or drama training as part of their public speaking training previously and want to do this, and really, you know, that’s not, that’s not ted style, you know, for lack of a better term, um, it’s people days. Really they’re not looking for Shakespearean, you know pretense. They really want to have an authentic engagement with the person who’s speaking. They want it to feel more like a conversation. I mean, there are certain industries, absolutely, where it is still very much hype and pomp, and that is absolutely right. And if I get a client who’s you, you know, wants to go and speak at something in Big Pharma, I’m like, okay, this is a totally different book for how this is done. But for you know, for the most part when you are speaking at conferences, um or TEDx, um events. People want to have that personal engagement. So it’s it’s more about authentic, sincere things. So untraining people who’ve been trained based on very old school ideas or dramatic ideas of public speaking over the idea of neuroscience and persuasion, that can be really challenging.

Tim: 31:01

So I guess for me, the way I’m thinking about it is knowing who your audience is and being able to take that same message and change the way you present and change those types of things to match that audience. And how important I’m looking at my audience now Hopefully you all have gotten that by now that to me the audience and preparation is two of the most important things that you can do, or are the most important thing that you can do. But then being able to acknowledge that and change that message to that audience if you’re given the same idea or the same talk to different audiences right, A hundred percent.

Juanita: 31:45

Your audience is everything. So, first of all, know what your strategic objective is to speak. By the way, that can never be the word awareness. If you’ve ever used the word awareness, I’m speaking to raise awareness. Stop that. Awareness gets you nothing.

Juanita: 32:03

Think of it in terms of sun cancer, which you know Australia, sun cancer, skin cancer. But you know I could be as aware out the wazoo about skin cancer and not change a single behavior. You don’t want me to be aware. You want me to put on a hat, put on sunscreen, put on sunglasses. Okay, wear a shirt when I’m out. You know that’s behavioral change. I’m saying yes to changing your behavior. You want me to understand the UV index and decide when I go outside. That is a behavioral change I’m saying yes to.

Juanita: 32:36

So, when you’re working out your strategic objective which you should do every time before you agree to speak somewhere is what is my strategic objective of speaking at this event or in this business meeting, whatever it is, and that should always be phrased as a question someone can say yes to. So I want you to put up this legislation in Congress that will change the rule of law. Yes, I want you to buy these products. Yes, I want you to sign this petition. Yes, um, tangible behavioral change, never awareness. So work out. Your strategic objective is then to do that. You need to know your target audience is, and your target audience has to be who has the power to say yes and do it exactly, because there are so many people who can be disinterested or say no and get in your way. Who has the power to say yes? That’s who you should be speaking to, and then, absolutely, you should tailor it to them.

Juanita: 33:31

I was talking to somebody the other day who had to go and pitch something to a couple of different people in an organization to potentially get some work signed off on, and they came back to me to say, oh, I just heard I’m actually going to have to do this as two separate meetings because the two key decision makers can’t be in the same room at the same time. Scheduling I’m like gold. That is the best thing ever I have ever heard. Right, because one is, you know, one is the CFO, who’s only going to care about money. I mean, that’s a gross generalization, but that’s what they’re being paid to do Right.

Juanita: 34:06

And one is about HR and interested in equity and retention and recruitment costs. So you have got this one. You know pitch. You’re trying to get them to say yes to yes. We’re going to engage you to deliver this project in our company. One of those presentations is just going to be tailored to be focused almost entirely about numbers, and the other one like the cost saving, the benefit, and the other one is going to include things about, you know, workload, sure, but also about equity and representation of women in their non-traditional workplace and those kind of things.

Juanita: 34:41

So you know very, very different audiences. Same yes at the end. But you should never, ever deliver the same presentation twice. You know it should always be, even if it’s only 10% different. But you know a minimum 10% difference to show that you have. You know who that audience is and you’re letting them know. I know who you are in this room. I know what your challenges are. I know why you’re interested in this topic and here’s some are. I know why you’re interested in this topic and here’s some takeaways that you can put into action straight away for you. Based on that and that should not be generic, to get up and give exactly the same speech over and over again, with no variations, is a real disservice to that audience. And it says I’m just phoning this in. I haven’t taken the time to research your company, your organization, your event, to know how to absolutely show value to you as a unique collection of humans.

Tim: 35:42

And that’s so important and that’s a great example the whole idea that two completely different audiences there with HR and finance. Now you really do have that opportunity to refine it and target each of them to get that yes. And that’s where, if you’re just doing the one presentation there, you’re still trying to get the yes, but it’s going to be a little bit more difficult to take those diametrically opposed viewpoints or you know, ideas to get that yes, so that’s awesome. No-transcript, or to worry about our timing or whatever. So what are some ways that do you like to really engage the audience?

Juanita: 37:00

First of all, I love that this questions come immediately after the last question because they are directly related. There are three points I really think I need to make. First is that most people, when they come to me and they want help with engaging the audience, they immediately go to dramatic art forms. So they’re thinking about what do I do with my hands? How do I move about the stage? How many times do I have to look at different people? What are the strategies for that? And I’m like, okay, I can absolutely talk to you about that stagecraft element.

Juanita: 37:36

But if you think of your presentation and delivering a truly engaging presentation, that is strategic and again, I don’t care how a truly engaging presentation that is strategic. And again, I don’t care how engaging you are unless it’s strategic and we’re getting to yes at the end. You know, go and talk to somebody about an engaging, you know um, wedding toast totally separate thing. But uh, the reason we care about engagement is because we want to get people to yes, um. But you know, if you think of it as a hundred meter sprint at the olympics, what you do with your hands and your vocal modulation and where you look, that’s like the last five meters of that race. It’s going to make the difference at the finish line and that can be incredibly important. But no one’s like that. Five percent does nothing for you if your actual talk is crud. So you know the yes, there are things you can do. You want to make sure that you are not so much of a robot that you’re standing and not looking at the audience.

Juanita: 38:27

Um, my best tip that I say to people is have a imagine you’re sitting having a conversation with a friend in a coffee shop. Pay attention to how often you use your arms and your gestures and things, and that’s how often you should do it, because you know otherwise people can tell it doesn’t feel authentic. If you’re suddenly thrusting in arm gestures, it’s weird. You want them to feel like you’re having a conversation just with them. So you know, coffee chat arms are perfect.

Juanita: 39:00

The other thing I say to them is that you’ve got to think of gestures like alcohol. So if I handed you a 700ml bottle of vodka and you had one significant gesture, so you have one glass, pour the whole bottle in there well, that is a very, very, very strong thing which people will remember and will dramatically emphasize a point. But if you put out 20 shot glasses and poured it across 20, that dramatically weakens the strength of each one of those drinks. So the more overt gestures you have, the weaker the influence and impact of each one. So think of gestures like a bottle of alcohol and how many. How you know? How strong do you want to be, how weak do you want to do? Because the more you spread it out, the weaker they become. So that’s in terms of the stagecraft or the dramatic part of it.

Juanita: 39:59

I think the other thing that’s really important is that if you the work comes following on from our last question, if you want your talk to be engaging, the work happens when you set your strategic objective and when you understand your audience and you tailor something specifically for them and you can tell you’ve achieved this because A they’ll feel engaged.

Juanita: 40:23

But the second you start talking and start mentioning things that are relatable to them because you’ve investigated it and you let them know that you understand that you have this particular problem and that you have a solution for it.

Juanita: 40:36

That person in the audience who might have just heard three other people speak and you know there might be double screening on their phone, will suddenly start hearing things like oh, you know, this is particularly for, let’s say, for example, you know, professional women who are struggling to juggle the challenges of parenting and career. If that is somebody in the audience, they will hear that, they will look up and they will pay attention and they will feel like this presentation oh my gosh, this presentation has been written specifically for me because it has and they will then be engaged. So, if you want your audience to be engaged, the secret is to actually know who they are, work out what will deliver them value. Know who they are, uh, work out what will deliver them value, tell them that, show and demonstrate you have an authentic understanding and can help them, and then they will be engaged. And it’s none of these, you know, sometimes people use the word tricks it really, you know, it’s not something I feel happy with, um, because people say oh, you know can.

Juanita: 41:38

Can you give me the tricks to to get people to pay attention or to feel engaged?

Juanita: 41:42

I’m like, if you’re going with the mindset that you’re trying to trick your audience rather than authentically engage and serve them and deliver, then that’s your first problem. You shouldn’t be trying to trick them by having look, my presentation is pretty ordinary but I’m going to chuck in some like dramatic. You know things to get your attention and you’re magically going to be engaged. Maybe they are more engaged, but you’re not going to get them to. Yes, if the content of what you’re putting together isn’t so. You know, I think to be engaging, you need to write really, really great content that is strategically crafted to them. So content is king, um.

Juanita: 42:23

Two, you got to do that. You need to really, really understand and respect your audience. So understand who they are, what will give them value, and so don’t sell, don’t try and trick them. It’s not a dodge or a hustle. And three, understand, yes, stagecraft is a part of it, but it is the last five meters in a hundred meter race and what will far more likely engage the well and keep them engaged is the quality and caliber of what you say and your knowledge and that you show authentically. You are not trying to dodge or hustle them. So the person in the audience that you need to get a yes from whether that’s one person or a thousand people will go. Oh my gosh, this presentation feels like it was written just for me.

Tim: 43:07

She’s talking to me exactly, exactly, yeah, and I it’s such a good point. I think that the whole idea of stagecraft is is so overblown and and overused, uh, and and, like I said, like, like you said, I think people see that they that they’re trying to be tricked. We don’t walk around talking to people flailing our arms all over the place. That’s not natural, that’s not normal and I’m a big believer in just being you and being authentic with who you are and how you communicate with people. And if you were to get on stage or get are and how you communicate with people and when you, if you were to get on stage or get in front of a group of people and start flailing your arms around, people know that’s not how you normally talk, it’s not how you normally are right and it’s gonna throw them off absolutely, it’s the answer, but it’s also the vocal tone and the way you speak.

Juanita: 43:56

I I had a really lovely um client, uh, new client come, client come and actually flew into my city, flew themselves into my city a couple of weeks ago to have in-person coaching and was really excited to share their draft presentation. And they got up and delivered it and I listened Brilliant idea, incredibly talented and bright person and I just, you know, I’m like’m like, okay, what you have done. Just then, just so you know, you just delivered a dramatic monologue and not a speech or a talk, and I I get a lot of that um, it happens quite often. I’m like, do you understand the difference?

Juanita: 44:37

If it feels like I could have seen that delivered on stage in a theatre as part of a monologue in a play or a show, then that’s a dramatic monologue. You have preached at me. You didn’t give a speech or a talk that was going to persuade me, and so the language was wrong. The idea is brilliant, the language was wrong and it really I’m like you have spent a lot of time and effort writing what is a dramatic monologue and that is not a speech or a talk that will persuade anyone. They’re going to feel lectured at and not conversed with.

Tim: 45:17

Um, and I hope people understand that, because, and again, if you, if you feel lectured at, your people will shut down and they’ll shut down quick and you know your, your, your call to action won’t, won’t be followed up, that’s, that’s, that’s just that. So Well, why do you know? I love the name of your business, full and Frank, and I think you just demonstrated why you named your business Full and Frank, and why don’t you tell everybody why that is? Because, again, I think we’re the same people and to me it’s obvious.

Juanita: 45:57

Well, when I first went out and decided to go out alone and I left the corporate world, I knew I didn’t want for me. It didn’t feel right to have something that was like Juanita Wheeler at Associates. It just was not a good fit for the way that I operate. And so, with my creative director, who’s based in Texas, we sat down and wrote words that more appropriately described my manner, and it was interesting because it was things that often in the corporate world people would say you’re brilliant but you’re too blunt. Or, you know, I agree with everything you just said, but you’re just a little bit too frank. But other people would love it.

Juanita: 46:34

And so you know I had no intention of dialing it back. I’m like this is who I am and, honestly, if I can tell you something in five minutes, especially if I’m charging by the hour, I’m going to tell you in five minutes and then let’s get to work with the rest of that 55 minutes of that hour. I’m not going to spend, you know, three hours worth of consulting to get to nicely. You know, get you there, I can tell you so much faster. That just to me feels again disingenuous. And you know, get you. There’s something I can tell you so much faster. That just to me feels again disingenuous and you know I makes me feel icky, like I need to go and have a shower afterwards. Like you know, I’ve dealt with those consultants. I do not appreciate them.

Juanita: 47:10

Um, so I just went no, so we went through a list and at the end we got you know, we’re down to like comprehensive but blunt um and full and frank. And full and frank was more catchy, uh, so we went with that and, um, I love it. It’s 11, a little over 11 years in business now and I and I still love it, which they say is a great uh sign. If, if you, if your business is a particular uh number of years old, the older it gets. If you still love the name, then it was a good choice. So I I kind of feel like it’s both my company name but also it’s kind of like a product disclosure statement. You know you can’t be surprised if you become a client or you do an onboarding thing and you get some very frank feedback which you know sometimes is.

Juanita: 47:55

I love your idea. Everything you just did was wrong, but it can all be fixed.

Tim: 48:01

And, like you said again, you get right to work fixing it and not having to rub somebody’s back and tell them it’s going to be okay. You really are smart, you really are the best ever. Let’s just get down to work and figuring it out and get busy, yeah.

Juanita: 48:17

I mean, I’ll say it in a sentence your idea is brilliant. It’s world changing. The entire world needs to hear about it. Let’s make this happen. Everything you just did in terms of speaking is wrong. Let’s fix it, but it’s all fixable, let’s do it.

Juanita: 48:29

Let’s start right now. Yes, and the other thing is you know I’ll tell people everything they need to know and absolutely nothing that they don’t. So you know before I put any content out or I do any sessions with people. I’m like I have three ticks Is this authoritative? Is this the best thing based on all the research I’ve done and all the fact-checking and all my experience? So, is it authoritative? Is it sincere? Because I’m a sincere person. I always want to make sure that I work with people who I believe in what they’re doing and I want to amplify the work they’re doing, because I do believe that the world needs to know, and you know. The third one is is it blunt? Because I am.

Tim: 49:12

That’s awesome. See, I’m called abrasive.

Juanita: 49:16

I have been called abrasive so many times in my life, especially as a woman, and I’ve been in meetings where I’ve seen someone being called oh aren’t they, you know? Assertive, and like three minutes later I’m abrasive and I have the exact same behavior. But, yes, no, I get abrasive a lot, but I will never be cruel, will never be cruel. I will tell you what you need to know in the shortest amount of time because I believe in you and I want to help. So, if you’re getting frank feedback, if I’m even bothering to give you feedback, I believe in what you’re doing and I want to help you do it well.

Tim: 49:55

And that’s a perfect way to explain. So where can people get in touch with you or find out more information if they want to work with you?

Juanita: 50:03

Well, a really great place to start is my website. I actually have a tools page which has a number of free guides and downloads, which is a great place for people to start. It’s fullandfrankcom forward slash tools and, other than that, you can find me, juanita Wheeler, on LinkedIn and drop me a message, or you can go to my link tree and I can provide you with the address to put the show notes.

Tim: 50:32

And I want to thank you so much and I’ll put all those in the show notes for everybody. I can’t thank you enough for spending some time with us and I value your friendship and the advice that you’ve given to our audience. I think it’s amazing. Thank you so much.

Juanita: 50:47

You’re incredibly welcome, Tim. I love what you’re doing. I’m very happy to help your audience and it has been a really delight talking with you today.

Tim: 50:56

Yeah, I’ve had a lot of fun Summertime there. Stay inside, stay cool. It’s winter here. I’m going to stay inside and stay warm, so just the opposite.

Juanita: 51:07

Yeah, it’s a bit like a jungle here today, but you know I’m not going to complain. I like the heat.

Tim: 51:14

You take care and we’ll talk to you soon.

Juanita: 51:15

Fantastic Talk soon.

Tim: 51:18

Be sure to visit speakingwithconfidencepodcastcom to join a growing community and register for the point for public speaking course. Always remember your voice has the power to change the world. We’ll see you next time, take care.