Reframing Networking: From Transaction to Connection with Michelle Schafer

Tim: 0:38

Welcome to Speaking with Confidence, the podcast dedicated to helping you unlock the power of effective public speaking. I’m Tim Newman, a recovering college professor turned communication coach, and I’m thrilled to guide you on your journey to becoming a powerful communicator. I want to thank each and every one of you for your support. It truly means the world to me. Powerful communicator, I want to thank each and every one of you for your support. It truly means the world to me. Please visit timnewmanspeakscom to get your free ebook the Top 21 Challenges for Public Speakers and how to Overcome them. Michelle is a career coach specializing in career transition and leadership development. She helps mid-career professionals who feel directionless take action to land careers that energize them. Michelle, welcome to the show. I’m really looking forward to our conversation today, and you’ll be happy to know it’ll be 70 degrees today, which is very, very different than when we talked a few weeks ago.

Michelle: 1:20

It really was, tim. Thank you so much for having me as a guest on the show, and I’m glad to hear that your snow has disappeared. That was a shock for you all.

Tim: 1:29

It really was, and let me just show you what we were dealing with a couple weeks ago in terms of the snowstorm, my goodness. So this picture is right outside my door. You can see my finger taking the picture up here. This was Wednesday morning, like right before we spoke, gosh. And again, this is in Hilton Head, south Carolina, so we don’t get snow, no, and what’s even more surprising than this, this is the stairs to my office on Friday. This is about noon on Friday, actually, gosh, and they had iced over, so it looks like snow, but it’s really ice, and so, you know, we don’t have any snow removal systems here and I mean, I couldn’t get into my office until, you know, sunday afternoon. And you know, as we talked, you know, when doing this, that really, you know, sets me back so far, you know, had to cancel things and you wouldn’t know it’s. You know it’s even worse what’s that?

Tim: 2:37

so I get into my office monday. Obviously there I have no control over some of this stuff. Uh, there’s an update to the to the operating system. Okay, so I update the operating system monday, monday night, so so I’m not losing time there. I get in tuesday and some people that I canceled last week. Before I scheduled for Tuesday, wednesday, I was out no.

Michelle: 3:02

I was scheduled for Tuesday, wednesday, thursday. I was out of town.

Tim: 3:04

Oh my goodness All of a sudden, my camera and my microphone would not connect.

Michelle: 3:10

Oh gosh, it was rebelling against the snow. Oh my gosh, oh my gosh, it was rebelling against the snow.

Tim: 3:15

Oh my gosh, and I don’t have phone numbers, which to me I don’t know. If I told you this, I need your phone number. Yes, because I’m a talker, I’ll send you an email, but I would, especially when you have things come up. I would much rather just give you a quick call or text message and say hey look, I’m sorry, this is what’s going on, and that way I’m not wondering did you get it? Did you not get it?

Michelle: 3:37

Exactly, exactly.

Tim: 3:38

Oh, but I was, so I lost. Oh no, and I’m driving myself nuts, and yeah, I’ve got other stuff I can do, but this is what I like doing no-transcript.

Michelle: 4:19

Right, you know you have these conversations and you know when, when you invest in the relationship, it turns into something really beautiful. So it’s so wonderful to hear that.

Tim: 4:24

Yeah, it is and, and. Again, this is how we connected and, and, um, how, and? Just think about this. You know you’re’re gonna be talking to my daughter doing some, maybe doing some work with her, just because of this connection as well.

Michelle: 4:38

So this is the power of this it really is like you, and the thing that I’ve always been amazed at over you know, not just the course of my career, but I mean like just the course of my life is you never know where one. You know where one conversation is going to lead and you know you might think, oh, like I don’t know if I’m going to get anything from this conversation. Or you know, for me, because I work with people who are looking for work, it’s easy to think, oh, this person I’m going to talk to, what are they going to be able to truly do to help me?

Michelle: 5:09

find my next job and you might be surprised at what comes from that conversation. I think a large part of it is being open. You know it’s being open and being curious and and going into the conversation not with a limiting mindset, you know, which is, oh, this person can’t help me, so therefore you know nothing will come of this. That’s a limiting mindset, but when we go into just even regular conversations with you know what we’ll call that growth mindset, where we can see like opportunities as opposed to limitations. You just never know where those conversations are going to go and they could lead to something that’s really productive, really positive, and something, as you’re seeing with some of the people that you’ve been working with.

Tim: 5:54

These are long lasting relationships and in some cases even turn into friendships, and at the start it was you know you didn’t know where it was going to go so amazing to hear that it is, um, and you know, when you, when you look at it again from from a bigger picture, you again take a step back and not think about any type of interaction of what can it do for me, but look at it from that bigger perspective Because, remember, it’s not always about you, ever. I mean, let’s get away from that and look at things from a bigger picture and how we can be of service to others, to others, or, you know, let’s just see where, see where it goes.

Tim: 6:36

I mean exactly, you know you could have a conversation like I, like I did last week with with an individual um and it was great talking to him, but there was from from the podcast perspective. There just wasn’t the connection there, there wasn’t.

Michelle: 6:50

Yeah and that’s great, that’s okay, it is, it really is. Yeah, I, I mean it’s. It’s interesting, as we’re talking about this and just you know the power of relationships and connections and and certainly how when we, when we build on those relationships, it also builds our own confidence. Like to have more conversations. A friend of mine in a networking group that I was part of years ago, like when I started as a career coach, I was part of this business networking group and he had this saying and I repeat it to clients you know, today I’m going to share it with your listeners right now which is, you know, think about networking conversations. And networking conversations are really like you know, you’re having conversations with the purpose of, you know, exploring possibilities and maybe learning about organizations. But he said, approach it with the interaction in mind. It’s all about the interaction and not about the transaction.

Michelle: 7:44

So the transaction is I’m just going to go and, like Tim, I’m going to have a conversation with you. So you know, I’m just going to have this conversation with Tim, I’m going to learn information, it’s going to help my job search, end of story, nothing else that happens. That’s a transactional relationship. But when you believe in the interaction, you’re going sharing your progress and courses that you’ve taken or advice that that person gave you. Let them know what you did with it. That’s all about the interaction. The interaction is the relationship and when we approach these conversations with the interaction in mind, they can go to really great places and sometimes be very, very surprising.

Tim: 8:33

Yeah, and especially when you’re dealing with young professionals, I think, as I’m seeing, I say older, you know, I think I kind of learned. I’ve always known it, but I kind of learned it when I was probably about 30.

Michelle: 8:49

Okay, there’s a difference between knowing something and learning something.

Tim: 8:53

right, exactly Because okay yeah, you know, people told you that. But when you learn and you see either wow, if I had done that would have gotten a different result, or I did that for the first time and this was the result that I got. So there’s a difference between knowing and learning right.

Michelle: 9:09

Exactly and then practicing Practicing what you’re learning.

Tim: 9:13

And then practicing, practicing what you’re learning. How do we, you know, get this, get that idea embedded in young professionals’ minds so that they don’t have to go through some of the things that we’ve gone through? I mean, you’ve got kids, I’ve got kids. Yeah, you know, we do the best we can, we teach them and we see them making the same mistakes that we made, even though we’ve told them don’t do that or do this, right, and. But somebody down the road, next door neighbor, tells them the exact same thing and it’s like the the the best thing they’ve ever heard. So how can, how can we get, you know, young professionals to understand, you know, it’s okay to talk to somebody, it’s it’s okay be. Go into a conversation with no goal, no agenda, see where it goes, and then go into a conversation with a goal and agenda and see which one is a better conversation.

Michelle: 10:03

Yeah, I mean, that’s such a great question because you know to your point, you learn more about, you know the power of having these conversations, like when, you know, when you were 30. And you know, I would say the same for me. I mean, I didn’t start any networking activity until I was about like 34 or 35. And the only reason was because of something that happened that necessitated it. I lost my job, I was thrust in the job market, so I really needed to explore some, some other alternatives fast. But this is something that we can build at a much earlier stage in life. And you know, if I think back to you know, things that would have helped me when I was a young professional, young adult, to be able to step into these conversations with confidence. It would have been having some kind of you know framework and you know to your point. Maybe you don’t know exactly where the conversation is going to go, but I find that and I’m going to speak with about my adult clients now for a second I find that people avoid having conversations because they just don’t know what to do.

Michelle: 11:14

They don’t think that they’re going to be good at it. And they don’t’t know what to do. They don’t think that they’re going to be good at it and they don’t really know how to do it, they don’t really feel like they have the skills. So then they just avoid the conversations completely. And in the context of looking for work, that can be disastrous, because having these conversations and building relationships when you’re looking for work forms, I’m going to say like upwards of 80% of the amount of time that you need to invest in finding that next job. So it’s more giving people the permission to be able to reach out, but with, you know, with a framework. So when I’m talking about that, it’s not even necessarily establishing what the outcome is going to be, but it’s thinking about putting the other person first. And so if you’re a person that naturally is curious, you know likes to ask questions of yourself or of other people, that’s going to be a skill that you can contribute to these conversations earlier in life. So I would, you know, I’d say to all of your listeners before you have a conversation with someone and this is even just you know you could be talking about, you know, like with a friend, or maybe you have like a new neighbor or somebody at school that you’re meeting for the first time ask questions of the other person, and so I find it can be really helpful and less daunting to be in the conversation when you’ve thought about the kind of questions that you would want to ask.

Michelle: 12:42

So, for example, let’s say you’re going to a group event and you know you’re not really sure, like you know, who you’re going to meet or where the conversation is going to go. Think about those questions you can ask, like you know. So you know. So why are you here? Like what attracted you here? And like, well, what are you hoping to get out of today? And how did you get here? You know, and you know, asking questions about the other person, you’re going to learn things about them and it’s a great way to keep the conversation going. And then you see where the conversation goes. You know one thing leads to another. Think about bringing those questions to the conversation. You’re going to learn about the other person. You’re going to learn, you know, something new that might help you with your own career aspirations, and then it becomes a really useful conversation to have. But having that framework and the preparation beforehand really builds the confidence.

Tim: 13:36

It really does. And I’m so glad you said that, because I’m somebody that harps on preparation and research and preparation and research and pretty much everything that we do, or everything that I do or talk about. You know, think about it from the perspective of if you’re going to go into, let’s just use that example as a networking event and you don’t have any idea of who’s going to be there. Like you know most most I mean networking events take on all different kinds of shapes and sizes and and that sort of thing.

Michelle: 14:06

But if you’re going to your industry networking event.

Tim: 14:08

Okay, who do you think is going to be there? If you’re going to, you know a town, you know a business networking event you know who’s members of the chamber?

Michelle: 14:19

Yeah, exactly.

Tim: 14:19

Think about those types of things and approach from there, because if you walk in cold and you’re not comfortable talking to people, that’s again. You get right back into this. Okay, I’m here, I don’t know who’s here, I don’t like talking to people, I don’t know where to start. Okay, you’re going to stand there for five minutes, you may go over, get a couple of bites of cheese and a drink, and then you’re out of here and you’ve just you’ve just lost an opportunity.

Michelle: 14:44

Oh yeah, many opportunities probably.

Tim: 14:48

And so that’s, that’s, that’s part of it. And and obviously, uh, I’m somebody who has a lot of questions and and I, you know, I I don’t take myself very seriously and I tell you know, my clients, I’m okay with being the stupidest person in the room. I really am, because if I don’t understand something or if I want to know something, I’m not going to just wither, I’m going to ask, ask a question or, you know, try and get the information or what have you, because I’m probably not the number one, I’m probably not the only one that has that question.

Michelle: 15:22

Yes, exactly, and you know it’s interesting, like you know, as we’re talking about, you know ask, asking questions. I mean, you know, yeah, of course we can learn so much, but you know it’s it’s. You know it’s just continuing that conversation, like like I find like I don’t know if you’ve ever gone to an event, tim, where you know you walk in the room and somebody like like almost thrust their business card in your face, starts talking about hey, like this is about me, this is what I can do for you and it’s all about me, me, me. So you know, when you’re at an event especially, I would invite your listeners like turn it around. Actually it’s not about you.

Michelle: 16:04

So maybe your backstory is you want to learn about a particular sector, or you want to learn about a particular career path, or you want to learn you know about. You know, like how somebody was able to enter a particular job. Make it all about the other person and less about you. Know about you know, like how somebody was able to enter a particular job. Make it all about the other person and less about you. And so you know what can make people you know comfortable and can really build that confidence is, think about being at an event, like just having a conversation in day to day life. And the thing is, you know, a lot of my clients will say but Michelle, like I don’t know how to do this, I’ve never had the network. And the thing is, you know, a lot of my clients will say but Michelle, like I don’t know how to do this, I’ve never had the network. And I said, okay, let’s frame this in a different way. I said do you have conversations?

Michelle: 16:46

And they say well, yes, I said have you ever had a conversation with somebody that you did not know at the time that you met them? And and they said, well, yeah, actually that happens all the time. Like you know, there’s you know somebody new like sitting beside me in class, or you know like there’s a new neighbor, and I say hi, and we start to have a conversation and I say so, you’re already doing it, you know, and that’s something that can really, you know, help individuals speak with confidence, because when you reframe something big like networking, it seems really, you know, daunting, because the word tends to create a lot of anxiety for people a lot of fear.

Michelle: 17:26

But when you reframe it to say, networking is really just about having conversations. It’s about doing research through conversation, because you do want to learn about the other person, about their organization, about you know what their path is, but you already have conversations every single day. This is something that we already have a skill on. So I find when we, when we reframe something that seems really big and really like we’re fearful of it into something that’s more familiar to us, it just gives that way in to allow people to have these conversations. And you know and I’m going to be honest here, tim so you know, you said you learned this skill at 30.

Michelle: 18:08

I said I learned this at age 34. I made a ton of mistakes when I started, you know, just reaching out and having conversations. It was clunky, it was awkward. I really don’t think I knew what I was doing, you know. But I was trying my very best. But the thing is, the more I did it, first of all I was learning, I was adjusting my approach, I was bringing new questions. I was, you know, I was just like in the conversation in a different way, but it was building my confidence too, because the more you know, you know as well like.

Michelle: 18:42

the more you do something, the more comfortable you’re going to feel with it, and having these kind of conversations and building relationships falls exactly in that category.

Tim: 18:52

Exactly, and the better you’re going to get. You know, again, full disclosure. Going to a networking event for me is like, yeah, I mean it’s it’s. I hate doing it, I don’t want to do it, it’s, you know, for any number of reasons, I mean, I’m, I’m, naturally I’m an introvert intro, but if we again, if we reframe it and look at it from a different perspective and understand there are certain things that we have to get over and do and look at it like you said, you know, make it about other people. I’m not going to say that it makes it easy, but it makes it easier and a little bit more comfortable for you. And again, doing it, you have to do it, you can’t talk about it, you have to actually go out and do it and then do it again, and then do it again, and that’s how you build the confidence.

Michelle: 19:46

It totally does. You know, you highlighted something there, Tim, which I think is really important.

Michelle: 19:51

You know, like, the difference between thinking about it you know, like doing the research, you know, like who’s going to be at this event, who am I going to be talking to? Like doing your preparation beforehand with your questions, all of that is really important. But if you don’t do anything about it, then you know, then nothing builds. And you know, the one thing that I’ve come to learn about the power of having these conversations, that I’ve come to learn about the power of having these conversations, the power of building relationships, is, you know, it works because people love to talk about themselves. We just need to ask. And so that’s where you know.

Michelle: 20:28

Back to what we were talking about earlier, like make it about the interaction, not the transaction. Like ask about the other person, come with your questions, really be curious and want to learn about them. Well, people are generally happy to share. And what I find too, because I get asked this question, like what if I go with all my questions and I never get a chance to talk about myself? And that’s where the reframing can help as well. I said so. Let’s say you’re talking to your friend and you say to your friend oh, tell me what you did this weekend, tell me how you dealt with all of the snow that came. You know what challenges did you experience? Like you’re going to ask your friend all kinds of interesting questions. Well, at some point in the conversation your friend is going to say you know what? I’ve been talking a lot about myself here, like, so tell me about you. Like, what did?

Michelle: 21:18

you do this weekend? How did you deal with the snow? And? And so that’s the other part of the preparation is you will want to have prepared like some kind of way to talk about yourself when the conversation comes back. The difference here is that you’re not leading with talking about yourself. You’re leading with finding out about the other person first.

Tim: 21:38

Yeah, and again, that’s so important. But even if you don’t get a chance to talk about yourself, that’s okay.

Michelle: 21:45

Yeah, that is okay, exactly.

Tim: 21:47

Because now you’ve learned about these other people and then you can still reach out and you can say you know, steve, it was great meeting you the other night at the networking event I’m not sure if you have time. Maybe we could grab lunch sometime next week. I’d like to talk to you about you know what you do, or you know this business or some of the things I’m doing that maybe we could work together. Whatever, it is Right, but just because you don’t have time to talk about yourself in that moment, that’s okay. Yeah, and you have to be comfortable enough in your own skin which leads to a different, different point that that that’s okay.

Michelle: 22:26

Yeah, yeah, I find, like at events, like events can be very fast paced so we can easily forget you know information that maybe we learned about someone before moving on to the next conversation. And, tim, I think your strategy is such an important one because it’s you know, it’s not just about meeting people and having the conversation. The follow-up is really important. So when you reach out and you thank that person, like just for their time, for meeting with them and asking for more of a conversation, that’s where you can really deepen the relationship. Like at events, if you get two or three minutes with somebody, that’s kind of long in a lot of cases because you know you’ll, you know things. Things tend to move very quickly.

Michelle: 23:12

So it’s really important to just take a pause, like after you’ve met someone, like get their business card. I find a really nice little trick is if somebody does have a card I know not everybody has cards these days but if somebody has a business card, flip it over on the back like jot a few little notes about what you learned about that person, just to kind of lock it in. Or take out your phone and create a little notes file where you’ve got you know the people that you’re meeting a bit of information about them. That way it will just make it easier for you to reach out and and you can pick up and show them that you were really paying attention, like somebody that I knew from a long time ago that did this so well and you’re going to be surprised, tim, it was my dentist. So my dentist and you know, think of your dentist. You see your dentist. Like what?

Michelle: 24:03

like twice a year and I’m convinced what my dentist did after I left is based on all of the different things that we were talking about. Which is harder? You know, you’ve got apparatus in your mouth or cleaning, but you’re still having conversations.

Michelle: 24:17

I’m convinced that she went, you know, into her office and she made a few notes about me and what I was sharing, because when I went and saw her months later it was like no time at a lab.

Michelle: 24:28

She had asked me questions that followed up on what it was that I shared before. She was really skilled at building relationships and she was not. She was not looking for work, there was no like she didn’t really have to do that really at the end of the day and she sees like hundreds of patients over the course of a year. But because she took that time, it just signaled to me that she values the relationship, that she pays attention, and so you know for all of the listeners, you know when you are talking to people, like, pay attention to those those little details about people’s lives, about what they’re interested in, about what’s happening with them, and and do integrate it into future conversations. It just shows that you’re somebody who really likes to build relationships and that’s an excellent, excellent quality to have. That will serve you in your career very well, but it will serve you in life as well.

Tim: 25:22

Yeah, being known as a connector is a good thing.

Michelle: 25:27

It truly is, and it’s not easy, you know. I think some people just have a natural tendency to do that Like, oh, like you should talk to this person, like you would have a lot in common. But you know, I think it’s a skill that any of us can do. And it’s really about being present, paying attention to what’s happening in the moment and getting curious. No-transcript If I wasn’t somebody that valued relationships or even thought about that, I wouldn’t have even made that suggestion. So it’s just about paying attention to the cues, like what’s happening around us, and I find we do this in our day-to-day life. Maybe we’re not aware of it, but it’s something that we do. Like, for example, maybe my neighbor is talking about I don’t know, like wanting to repaint the inside of their house, and I say like and I’ll say, oh, you know I use this, you know this company and they were awesome.

Michelle: 26:31

Like, maybe you want to reach out to them Like that would be a connection that I’ve made for that other person. I’m not like thinking every day about doing these kinds of things, but in the moment those opportunities present themselves. So it’s capturing those opportunities and using them to enrich somebody else’s life and and people will remember that.

Tim: 26:51

Exactly, they do. They do so. So you, you’ve had two, two major um career shifts. Yes, what was that like? What did you learn? And how are some of those things related to, like a young professional just starting their career and looking for work? Because it’s hard, it’s hard.

Michelle: 27:11

It’s hard, it’s like it’s a tough job market.

Michelle: 27:14

It’s you know, looking for work requires a lot of work and you know a number of people and young professionals included, because I have worked with some clients who are like just at a university, who are looking to establish their careers and not really sure, like, what direction to go in, and the mistake that a lot of people make like even even my adult clients who are almost close to retirement and they’re looking for a new path it’s it’s just looking online like it’s it’s, you know, confining the job search to like just searching online.

Michelle: 27:49

And you know, when I went through my two big career transitions I mean I worked for a large national bank. I was in financial services for 18 years. Actually, it was the job I had right out of high school for 18 years. I was restructured, my position was eliminated because of a merger and I went into not-for-profit and the same thing happened seven years after that. Because of funding changes, my position was eliminated. And I remember in the beginning, when I first started looking for work, I did, I just confined my search to online, like what jobs are posted, what jobs are available, which is a really passive approach because, you’re just kind of waiting for things to happen and positions to be posted.

Michelle: 28:33

But the biggest learning that I had that will serve young professionals really well, will certainly serve like more established, like maybe mid-career professionals very well as well is recognizing that there are so many opportunities that will never get posted yes and, in fact, you know, this is something that was a big shift since the days of the pandemic, which, like now, are like five years ago, where a lot of organizations are gravitating to filling positions through their network.

Michelle: 29:06

They’re not posting them online, they’re using their network and they’re using their employee base to identify some really great fits. So if you’re a young professional, like you know you’re, you’re just out of school, you’re establishing your career, just knowing that not all the positions are online is a huge learning, which means that you need to be building relationships, you need to be reaching out, and so, you know, one of the things that I learned to do was, you know, starting to reflect on you know, what’s important to me in the kind of organizations that I want to be part of, and then brainstorming a list of those organizations that I would be interested in just learning more about. Again, it’s about being curious. They may not necessarily have a position that’s posted, but actually reaching out to, you know, individuals in those companies to ask some questions and to learn more. And so the even bigger learning that if everybody you know listening today, you know remembers this, this will be a big.

Michelle: 30:07

Actually, there’s two things, two big things that I’m hoping people will take away. One is to remember that you know your network is not just the people in front of you, meaning the people you’re immediately connected to, like people from school, or friends and family, or neighbors, or people at the gym. Those are people that are in our immediate circle. What’s important to remember as a first step is there’s hundreds of people behind each person that we know, which I’m going to call looking through the network and not just at it.

Michelle: 30:41

So if you’re you know, looking to, you know, learn about a particular career path, you know, not just looking at your friends and family, but asking who does your friends and family know that maybe can give you a conversation, becomes really important.

Michelle: 30:57

First of all, it widens your circle, but you also get to build relationships with people who you don’t really know. So that, like that, was the first big learning from all of my transitions. But the second one this one is huge is, every time you talk to somebody whether you’re asking them to look at your resume, or you’re asking them to at your resume, or you’re asking them to you know help you better understand what other courses you might need to take in order to get into a particular career path or job. It’s the importance of, with every conversation, ask who else in that person’s circle they would be comfortable in connecting you with, and when we do that, we’re naturally going to get to talk to new people, which means we’re naturally going to find out about other organizations, other career paths. With every conversation that can lead to a brand new conversation, and the power of that is like exponential like there’s no price tag on that kind of network building.

Tim: 31:57

Yeah, you’re absolutely right. And the whole idea of reaching out to people at different organizations and just having an informational interview five or ten minutes, it’s so critical. And one of the issues that people complain to me about is they’ll reach out, they’ll email somebody and not not hear back. And I say, well, did you call them, did you? Yeah, was your email professionally written?

Tim: 32:27

exactly you know, were you asking something that was unreasonable? Did you, did you give them an opportunity to an opportunity to say no if they don’t have the time? But I think it’s so important. You know, the follow-up is so important.

Michelle: 32:43

It really is Pick up the phone.

Tim: 32:45

I mean I say pick up the phone like it’s back in 1990. We actually had to pick up the phone.

Michelle: 32:49

It still works.

Tim: 32:50

It does, but call somebody you know, dial the number and actually talk to them, because that, to me, is so much more personal. You know, a lot of times, you know, emails come through and number one if I don’t necessarily know the person right off, or if the subject line isn’t something that’s going to hit me right away, I may not delete it, but I may not actually read it or answer it Exactly. And then it gets further, further, further further down the email line.

Michelle: 33:23

Yeah.

Tim: 33:24

It may get lost, but if you pick up the phone and you and you reach out, I find that you know most professionals. If if you come at them with a professional ask in a reasonable way and they’ve got time for you, they will help.

Michelle: 33:40

Yeah, for sure you know, and, tim, you’ve just highlighted something really important there, which is you know the importance of like even being prepared to reach out, like we were talking earlier about, like how you can be prepared for the actual conversation, but it’s also important to be prepared just to simply reach out to people. So, whether that’s crafting a really professional ask, that is very clear about you know the purpose for you reaching out, because I find, if there’s no purpose in there, people wonder who is this person? Why are they reaching out to me? Why do they want to spend time with me? So so be clear about you know what, what you’re hoping that the other person can help with. But also be prepared, if you are going to be picking up the phone, like you know, you don’t want to just be winging it and umming and ahhing through the whole thing, which is not as professional. So so you know, having an approach that shows that you know you’re valuing that person’s time as a gift, that it is a professional reach out, you’re going to be making a really positive impression.

Michelle: 34:43

And there’s one thing I’d like to highlight especially for, you know, for young professionals listening, you might be thinking hold on, like how can I just reach out to somebody at a company like they don’t know me, especially if that person is far more senior than I am?

Michelle: 35:01

And if you’re a young professional, almost everybody that you’re going to be talking to to explore you know career paths or learn about organizations almost everybody’s going to be more senior than you because they’ve had years of professional experience. So I will oftentimes hear from clients and again these are mid-career professionals who also struggle with this they say, well, how can I reach out to the CEO or the executive director or the vice president or the regional manager or anybody in a senior position or the regional manager or anybody in a senior position? And what I hear from my clients is they say that person is too busy, like they’re busy leading the company. Why would they talk to me? And and I call that a limiting belief because it’s an assumption, it’s a judgment, like like if we believe that we’ll never reach out to somebody more senior because in our head we’ve already discounted it, we haven’t even given them a chance.

Michelle: 36:01

We already are assuming, oh, they’re going to say no because, like, why would they want to meet with me? But here’s the reality. The reality is these individuals, even if they have like a big title beside their name, they’re human first of all, they’re just a person who happens to lead the company.

Michelle: 36:18

They’ve also had to do a fair amount of networking themselves to get to that senior role and because they’re human, they want to help. You know, most people really do want to help and so when we, when we reframe that, it just gives us a way in, like. I’ll tell you a short little story that emphasizes this and this is something I share with lots of my clients because it’s a true story. So back in the days, you know, before I got into coaching and I was looking for work, one of my connections, a former colleague of mine, had put me in touch with somebody who you know was senior. This person was leading our touch with somebody who you know was senior. This person was leading our community foundation, which you know gives grants to different organizations within the city and you know, being in Ottawa, canada, there’s a number of not-for-profits here and this person referred me on and said oh, you know what? You should talk to the chief medical officer of health for the city of Ottawa, because there’s always things happening at the city. Maybe there’s an opportunity for you.

Michelle: 37:20

And at the time I actually didn’t do anything about that suggestion because in my head I had that limiting belief of this is the chief medical officer of health, who would be responsible for every single major health crisis that the city has. I said, why, like? To myself. I said why would he want to meet with me? He’s way too busy. So I didn’t do anything about it for weeks, but I kind of kept thinking about it, I kept coming back and eventually I just said to myself you know what? I have nothing to lose.

Michelle: 37:51

Let’s say he turns me down or he doesn’t respond. I’m no further behind. I could be very far ahead, though, so I, you know, mustered up my courage. I phoned and got his assistant. His assistant booked me in for some time the following week.

Michelle: 38:07

Well, not only did this individual like have time, he gave me like 30 minutes of his time and we talked about you know what was going on in the city. He asked me a number of questions about my experience and, at the end, talked about you know what was going on in the city. He asked me a number of questions about my experience and at the end, he said you know what? He said nothing’s happening right now in the public health area, but he said I know, like you know he’s, he’s been around for a while. He said I know that things change pretty quickly. So he said send me your resume, I’ll give it to human resources. You never know what will happen. Well, tim, two weeks later, I got a call from our Ottawa Public Health Human Resources and they said you know what, like, we have a need to have somebody like plan some medical conferences that are coming to the city. It’s a contract opportunity. Would you like to be considered?

Tim: 38:52

Well, the answer was yes.

Michelle: 38:54

And I interviewed. I got the job, turned out to be the best employment experience I had had, Certainly one of the best, and I would have never known about that if I had to get in the way. Like this, person is human and they potentially could help you.

Tim: 39:21

When you reach out, when you plan and prepare and you have a really professional ask, you know chances are that person will want to help and that that offer of health might actually lead to a job exactly, exactly, and you, that’s that’s so important to get and understand, and uh, everything about that that story is is, I mean you could pick lesson after lesson after lesson and uh, at any point, if you hadn’t done something, what would have happened? Right, yeah?

Michelle: 39:53

Yeah, exactly.

Tim: 39:54

You just never know yeah.

Michelle: 39:57

And here’s the thing.

Tim: 39:58

Even if you called and he said no one, that’s okay, Exactly. Or if you called and he said you know what, I really don’t have time, but I know who does have some time. Yeah, so now you’ve got two different people that you’ve interacted with or or more. So it’s you know, just just just dial a number.

Michelle: 40:18

Yeah, I mean, I think you know what you, what you mentioned there kind of falls into the category of what’s the worst that can happen. So I reach out what’s the worst that can happen? Oh, the person says no, okay. So you know, is that going to set you back? No, because you haven’t lost anything, but you can gain a lot. So you know, I find you know, especially with with having conversations, there’s there’s a lot of these like the limiting beliefs and the limiting beliefs. Nobody’s imposing those on us. We are standing in our own way, and so when we get out of our own way and we take on approaches that allow us to reframe those limiting beliefs, it allows us to move forward. We can take positive, productive action and maybe that will build into a relationship that is going to pay dividends for years to come. You just never know until you take a chance and you do it.

Tim: 41:14

Exactly. Is there anything else that audience should be thinking about as they go through the job search and networking process?

Michelle: 41:21

You know, I mean, we’ve talked about so much, haven’t we? And we’ve had some like really key takeaways. You know, like if you don’t ask, you don’t get. Certainly you know.

Michelle: 41:31

The other thing I guess I’ll leave everybody with is you know we did talk about the importance of preparation, and you know I like to think about engaging in networking activity as like going on vacation Maybe not as much fun, but the elements are the same which is you need to have a destination, meaning you need to have a purpose. Like you know, we generally don’t just reach out just for fun, like usually there’s an aim, um, but you definitely need to have a plan. Like imagine if you went on vacation and you had no plan. It would be a disaster. It’s the same with networking.

Michelle: 42:04

And so you know I I want everybody to know that that you might be listening to this and you might be thinking, but, michelle, you’re like you know how to do this, like you’re a coach, you help people with this very thing, like how to build networking strategies and approaches, and feel confident. Know that when I first started out with this at the age of 34, I was not confident it every conversation I thought that was a mess. Like I don’t know if that went well, like what’s going to come out of it. I really didn’t know what I was doing in the beginning and my confidence built over time from having done it. So I have seen it with clients that are very hesitant to have conversations one-on-one or in events with people.

Michelle: 42:55

Have conversations one-on-one or in events with people and when they are ready to take that step and they start doing it, the power of it is like, just like. There’s no price tag. It leads to new connections, it leads to more information, it leads to jobs. And so if you’re thinking to yourself, well, I can’t do this, I’m not really good at it, maybe you have more of an introverted communication style and it’s hard to be in conversations, know that everybody can do this. With reflection, with preparation, with practice, it can be something that you can do. Practice it can be something that you can do. You just need to believe in yourself and know that there’s a framework that can support you and can help to build your confidence. So some big lessons coming out of today.

Tim: 43:43

Yeah, and again, 100% correct. And I would just add one thing I’m 56. I’ll be 57 here soon and I still don’t think I’m good at it. Because you know you go in and okay, wow, some of the things that come out of my mouth sometimes you know they’re insane. I mean, because that’s just who I am when I’m in the moment and I’m talking and we’re having a good time and we’re doing these different types of things. But you have to be able to go back and look at it and say, okay, well, you know, don’t say that again and you grow from it. And it’s okay Because, remember this, they’re not judging you.

Michelle: 44:33

No, they’re not and they’re not judging you. No, they’re not and they don’t want you to fail either.

Tim: 44:37

Exactly, so everything’s going to be okay.

Michelle: 44:39

Exactly.

Tim: 44:43

But this is a very exciting time for you. It is your book. Cultivating Career Growth Navigating Transitions with a Purpose was released on February 6th. Tell me about it, because I’ve done a book and I’ll never do it again.

Tim: 44:59

It’s a lot of work, isn’t it, tim? I’ll never say never, but there’s no plan to ever do it again. But it’s an exciting time because I mean to write a book where people don’t understand. It’s so much time, so much effort. It is, and you know it’s a heavy lift. And then you’ve got the book tour. You’ve got to go on and you’re promoting this and promoting that and then finally it’s released. And I’m just going to tell you something it doesn’t stop.

Michelle: 45:24

It doesn’t stop. It’s just the beginning, isn’t it? It is so tell us about the book.

Tim: 45:27

So tell us about the book.

Michelle: 45:28

Sounds great. Thank you so much for asking. So my book is really meant to give a framework and a system for individuals looking to explore new career paths or find new work because they’ve been displaced through restructuring or other means. Individuals are looking for a job like whether it’s because they’ve lost their job suddenly or whether they just don’t feel the love in their work anymore and realize that they’re meant for more.

Michelle: 45:57

What I find people struggle with the most is figuring out where do you look, how do I know what I’m looking for and you know what is a plan or a strategy that’s going to support me in finding what it is that I really need. And so you know my book will take readers through some reflection, thinking about what work really energizes you, the kind of companies that you really enjoy working with, and those deal breakers or those non-negotiables the things that you have to have in your next step. So it’s part reflection, it’s part chapter. I’ve got like some reflection questions and lines like built right into the pages where you can write in your notes, you can write in your reflections, the things that are important to you from that particular chapter that will help you form your job search strategy. So I’m really excited it’s, you know, it’s a combination of not just my framework but client stories along the way and also my own experience, because I’ve gone through transition.

Michelle: 47:19

You know, I remember when I went through my very first transition, when I lost my job after 18 years, I needed support, I needed a framework and I needed a guide to help me with my next steps. So I’m hoping my book will be that. I’m hoping that my book will support individuals and like and be that guide and share those strategies and help people build out their plan so that they’re not just applying for jobs, you know, which tends to not be very effective, but that you have like a real purpose to looking for work and, and you know, similar to networking, like looking for work is like going on vacation too. You need to have a target and you absolutely need to have a plan. There’s some similarities there. So so a lot of what we’re talking about today appears in my book and, yeah, I’m super excited to see where this leads.

Tim: 48:11

That’s so awesome, and where can people buy it?

Michelle: 48:14

So people can buy on Amazon. If you are an e-book reader and you have a Kindle, you can get a Kindle version, the paperback as well. You can order on Amazon and you can also, if you’re interested in just I’m going to say, trying before you buy, you can go to my website and you can get a downloadable free chapter from my book so you can get a taste for what the book is all about and that will give you a sense for you know what it is that I’m talking about and you know, hopefully lead you to buy the book. So my website is mschafercoachingca. There’s a tab that is called my book. Mschafercoachingca. There’s a tab that is called my Book. You just click on that. You can sign up to receive the free chapter and also stay in touch with me to hear about other offerings that I will be bringing forward after my book is out in the world for a little bit.

Tim: 49:04

That’s awesome and I’ll put that link in the show notes. Excellent. Where else can people find?

Michelle: 49:09

you, so you can find me on LinkedIn If you would like to follow me or connect with me. I post on career exploration and job search topics, I would say at least four times a week, and so you know this topic of having conversations and building relationships is one that I’m quite familiar with writing on, so do look for me on LinkedIn. Building relationships is one that I’m quite familiar with writing on, so do look for me on LinkedIn. Do you know? Go to my website again. It’s mshafercoachingca. I’ve got lots of resources there and articles that I’ve written that may help you in your own exploration, and you can learn more about my my services as well. So a number of different places that you can find me. And if you feel motivated after listening today and you would like to reach out and have a conversation with me my email is michelle at mshafercoachingca you can book a complimentary 30 minute discovery call with me, especially if you’ve got some questions and some challenges and you just need a conversation partner, feel free to reach out to me directly that way.

Tim: 50:10

A conversation partner feel free to reach out to me directly that way, michelle, that’s awesome. Thank you so much for sharing that and I will say make sure you follow Michelle on LinkedIn because she does put up really good and valuable actionable information and it’s phenomenal, michelle. But thank you so much for sharing such valuable information with the Speaking With Confidence community. I really do appreciate it.

Michelle: 50:33

Thank you so much, Jim, for having me today.

Tim: 50:36

Be sure to visit speakingwithconfidencepodcastcom to get your free ebook Top 21 Challenges for Public Speakers and how to Overcome them, and also register for the Forum for Public Speaking. Always remember your voice has the power to change the world. We’ll talk to you next time, take care.