Tim Newman [00:00:09]:
Most people think persuasion is about convincing. My guest today says it's about storytelling, and if you don't earn the attention in the first 30 seconds, you've already lost. Welcome back to Speaking with Confidence, the podcast that helps you build the soft skills that lead to real results. Communication, storytelling, public speaking, and showing up with confidence in every conversation that counts. I'm Tim Newman, a recovering college professor turned communication coach, and I'm thrilled to guide you on a journey to becoming a powerful communicator. Today on Speaking with Confidence, trial lawyer and novelist Michael Stockham joins to unpack why confidence is built through clarity, curiosity, and story, not volume or bravado. Michael is a powerhouse in the legal world and a rising star in the literary realm. As a top-notch litigation attorney with over 2 decades of experience at a prestigious big law firm, Michael continues to tackle high-stakes cases.

Tim Newman [00:01:02]:
He's a graduate of Cornell Law School. He's not only a sought-after litigator but also an electrifying speaker who commands attention in the courtroom and beyond. Confessions of an Accidental Lawyer was his first bestselling novel, followed by legal thriller series starter Jake Fox: Ties That Bind— excuse me, Jake Fox: Ties That Blind. Michael, sorry about that with the book title, but welcome to Speaking with Confidence.

Michael Stockham [00:01:29]:
It's my pleasure to be here, and you just proved that it's okay to make mistakes. So we're all good.

Tim Newman [00:01:34]:
It is. And as we talked about this before we got started, I say stupid stuff all the time, and it's just part of who you are, and you just got to accept it and laugh at yourself and really just kind of move on.

Michael Stockham [00:01:48]:
Yeah, I heard a great metaphor for that over the weekend that, uh, you know, the universe made a windshield much bigger than a rearview mirror because it's more important to look forward than backward.

Tim Newman [00:01:58]:
That's awesome.

Michael Stockham [00:02:00]:
That, that I've been trying to live by that for the last 72 hours because we're all human and mistakes are a normal part of, of life and they're actually a normal part of a story. I mean, if you think about it, um, comedians write all of their material to be absolutely perfect and then once they like the jokes They go back and they do what's called wrecking it. And they go back and break up the diction, make it sound more comfortable. They throw in mistakes to make it more human. So overall, in communications, make us more human. Mistakes in communication make us more human, more relatable, and actually can get you a better rapport with the audience. So I would say embrace them because they're excellent opportunities to prove that you're just like the people you're trying to communicate with.

Tim Newman [00:02:47]:
Exactly. Now, let's take that a step forward now, because you've spent years persuading juries, judges, readers, etc. But what actually separates communication that lands from communication that gets ignored?

Michael Stockham [00:03:03]:
I think brevity to a certain extent. So, I watch a lot of people talk, whether it be continuing legal education, speeches, judges. I watch a lot of all kinds of communicators across all types of media, YouTube and others. And I think the stuff that lands is one, immediately engaging, which I think means that you need to tell what you're up to in your communication early on in what you're saying. Don't bury the lead, the famous newspaper slogan. And 2, brevity. You know, a lot of people in communication believe that more is more important, where clarity is actually the most important thing.

Tim Newman [00:03:54]:
Yeah, it's— so when I look at clarity, and I'm glad you talked about that, to me, I kind of break— I look at it from the standpoint of I don't want people to take this the wrong way, but I say that people are stupid, right? But people aren't stupid. What I'm talking about is breaking it down so that the average person can understand what you're saying, and you can use as few words as possible to be able to explain whatever it is. And if you can't explain it in as few words as possible to, let's just say, somebody who's in the 8th grade, you probably don't understand that position yourself.

Michael Stockham [00:04:33]:
Absolutely. And I do this all the time in my daily work as a lawyer, working with younger lawyers, editing briefs, etc., or talking through arguments to be made in court. The longer it goes on, the more legalese they use, the more complicated they make it, they make it, the more I come to believe that they really don't understand what they're trying to communicate as clearly as they should. And that if they just go back and ferret out or try to tease out the actual concept or point that they're trying to make, it'll make the communication a lot more succinct and therefore robust and a lot more effective.

Tim Newman [00:05:12]:
Yeah. Was there a time as a young lawyer that, that learning that point really kind of stuck out to you?

Michael Stockham [00:05:22]:
Yeah, numerous times in front of judges. I've had judges tell me when I was a baby lawyer, You know, to get to the point. What do you want? What do you mean? I've had them lose patience with me. I think average everyday people can experience this even at, say, a restaurant with friends when they start to tell a story about something that happened that they want to communicate that was fun or interesting or dramatic. You know, a lot of people in this day and age, especially with social media, lose interest in the first 20 to 35 seconds. So—

Tim Newman [00:05:55]:
Yeah.

Michael Stockham [00:05:56]:
It's important in those relationships and those communications to try to get something, some sort of hook, some sort of intrigue up front. And for people that are trying to persuade, I think that to a certain extent means you need to tell your audience, whoever it is, the judge, the jury, if you're a salesperson, the prospect, why you win within the first 30 seconds. Otherwise, you know, the The modern mind starts to wander pretty quickly.

Tim Newman [00:06:24]:
Yeah. Yeah. And it's— I look at that from really 2 different perspectives. From one perspective, it's sad that our attention span is that short that you can lose a lot of nuance to a lot of things. But on the other side, again, the quicker, like you said, the quicker that we can get to whatever point it is, the more I would say really the more persuasive it is because that's what they're going to remember. They're not going to remember the, you know, the 2 minutes in or even that closing piece unless that closing piece is really more persuasive than the opening piece.

Michael Stockham [00:07:04]:
I 100% agree. And it's not that people won't pay attention. I think you need to convince them that they should pay attention.

Tim Newman [00:07:12]:
Right.

Michael Stockham [00:07:12]:
So, if you can intrigue them, In the first, you know, 30 seconds to a minute and give them a pathway to what you need to cover, I think they'll give you the patience to pay attention for a much longer period of time. For example, I've been following a criminal trial in the Southern District of New York just out of curiosity and also for some clients just to see the outcome. And the judge gave each side 2 and a half hours for closing. Which I was, one, amazed at with the patience of the judge, but I can't— I could not fathom really myself a closing argument taking 2 and a half hours. And so when you think about that, if you're going to take the full 150 minutes, then you really need to figure out where— how you're going to hook the people that you're talking to, the jury.

Tim Newman [00:08:05]:
Mm-hmm.

Michael Stockham [00:08:06]:
You need to figure out how you're going to give them milestones to let them know that where they are and what you promised, that you're halfway there, 3 quarters there. And you also need to figure out, and this is sort of a comedic thing, right? You need to figure out loopbacks. You need to figure out ways within the argument to come back and reinvigorate their interest or reinvigorate their engagement in the conversation. Because if it's just 2, 2 and a half hours of a PowerPoint and a lawyer droning on, Oh my God. I would say everything after 15 minutes is probably wasted.

Tim Newman [00:08:41]:
Yeah. The thought of that to me is just— my shoulders are tight just thinking of having to— whether I'm a juror or whether I'm an observer, whether I'm the judge, just the thought of listening to that for 2 and a half hours, just— it's got me all tensed up. How do you— How would you go about, you know, if— what's the thought process from, from the legal perspective? Okay, we have 2 and a half hours and it's a big case, and this case has been going on for a long time, and there's so much, uh, evidence and testimony and, and transcripts and those types of things. How do you pare it down to the, to the real points to to truly make a persuasive argument?

Michael Stockham [00:09:30]:
A few things that I think are really helpful, especially if you have a long presentation you need to make, whether it be a lecture or something else. But I think you need to lean into a little bit into human nature. So humans learn things by story. Story is best communicated by chronology. And then the most dramatic thing in story is the characters themselves. Like if you read a A David Mamet play like Glengarry Glen Ross, it's, you know, when you look at the dialogue, it's pretty sparse, and there's a lot that's within the gaps there, but it's the personalities and the actual characters themselves that carry that play forward. So, if you're looking at a very long presentation, or you're looking at a very long discussion, I think it's important, one, to be knowledgeable about your subject. So that you can be as concise as possible.

Michael Stockham [00:10:25]:
2, try to explain things in a chronological or normal order so it doesn't seem like you're just trying to do flashbacks or that you forgot to tell them something. And 3, if there are characters that you can find, because most of what we deal with are human interactions, which at a very base level are human drama, you try to find that cast of characters and anchor people in the different characters that you have.

Tim Newman [00:10:49]:
Yeah. And I think the whole idea of what you do in terms of litigating and closing arguments and opening arguments and those types of things, it's really kind of different than any other type of speaking that's out there. Because let's just say, even from a teaching perspective where I come from, if I've got an hour and 15-minute class, if I'm talking for 30 minutes, to me, that's a lot.

Michael Stockham [00:11:12]:
Yeah.

Tim Newman [00:11:12]:
I'm having the students in interacting with each other, demonstrating things, asking questions, what have you. But I mean, there's no real interaction from the jury, right? I mean, it's not, it's not like you're asking the jury questions. You're not giving them, uh, you know, something here, you try this, or anything like that. So that's a completely different type of, uh, speaking and persuasion than anything else there is. What's the best way to get good at something like that?

Michael Stockham [00:11:44]:
Again, going back to sort of human nature, if you're going to have a quiet audience, if you will, then I think you need to get really good at reading body cues.

Tim Newman [00:11:55]:
Okay.

Michael Stockham [00:11:55]:
You need to understand the facial expressions. You need to understand what looks like frustration, what looks like boredom, what looks like the recipient of the message already has that. Like, you don't want to be going over the same ground over and over again if they get the point. So you become really adept at, and this is a skill everybody can have because like I said, if you're in sales with a prospect, maybe they don't want to engage. Maybe they just don't, they just want to hear the pitch. Or if you're at dinner with friends and you're telling a story of something that happened to you, understanding how other human beings are reacting to what you're telling them and taking those social and human cues cues can be really valuable to start trying to figure out and study, not in a bad way, not like you're putting everybody in a petri dish, but just to try to get better at understanding how your audience is responding to what you're trying to communicate.

Tim Newman [00:12:54]:
And how much, you know what, how much of building that story arc is— obviously, a lot of that is planned and practiced and that type of thing. But how much of that is kind of like a comedian improvisation as you're going through the talk and the argument? Or let's really just call it what it is, the storytelling. It's a storytelling piece.

Michael Stockham [00:13:20]:
A little bit of both in different phases of the trial. So direct examination of a witness has a lot of prep and rehearsal. They know where you're going with the outline, but witnesses never behave on the stand the way they behave in your office. So you have to have some sort of ability to improvise and bring back— bring things back on track. Cross-examination can be a lot of improvisation because you're really up against somebody on the stand that wants to see you fail. I mean, I tried to explain to my wife one day, she was like, well, why are you tense when you go to work? And I go, well, You have to understand, I wake up every morning with everybody on the other side hoping that I fall flat on my face and fail miserably. So it's, it's kind of an uphill battle. But, you know, cross-examination is that way.

Michael Stockham [00:14:12]:
There's a little— you got to learn to improvise. You got to be quick on your feet. And then on closing, you know, like I said, I like to try to think of a 30-second wrap-up, why I win. Mm-hmm. Then I try to think of a 250 to 500 word synopsis of the case that outlines the milestones we'll go through in the evidence and what the jury will hear. And then after that, it's, you know, it is sort of pre, pre, um, written and pre-worked, but then there's improvisation in that. How fast do I go? How close do I go? Do I skip certain things? Do I understand what the jury has? And that goes back to reading the cues from the humans in front of you. As to how your message is being received.

Michael Stockham [00:14:56]:
And if it's being received well, then I think your confidence grows and your ability to speak becomes more loose and more human. And if it's going not so well, it can impair your confidence. And if you don't have the ability to pivot and find a new way to interact with the, with the audience, then you can really sort of deflate your confidence when you think that the receiver of your message is not being receptive.

Tim Newman [00:15:22]:
Yeah, it's interesting. I listen to a lot of true crime podcasts and you hear a lot about how juries look at nonverbal communication of the defendant, but don't really hear a lot about how they look at nonverbal communication from from the attorneys, whether they be the prosecutor or defense attorneys. How much of that really comes into play? Like, let's just say you're doing closing arguments. Are you just standing at the table? Are you staying at the podium? Are you moving around? Are you gesturing, getting closer to the jury box? How does that work with you? And what, what's effective, do you think?

Michael Stockham [00:16:17]:
A little bit of, so I think you try to engage as a human being as much as possible. So what I would nickname the well of the court, which is that area in front of the counsel tables near the lectern in front of the jury, that's sort of the well. And you try to use that as much as possible. Now, different judges have different rules, but generally on opening and closings, they'll give you pretty free rein of that space. Excuse me, and I think you need to own that space and try to become as human as possible. You're right; you don't hear a lot on true podcasts and other things about the demeanor of the lawyers or how they're treated or or what they're being perceived as. But I can tell you from experience that the moment the jurors walk in during jury selection and they sit down and the lawyers first interact, they are immediately watching everything about the. Everything about the lawyers, from the shine on their shoes to the way they interact with their client to how they behave as human beings, and everything is under scrutiny for everyone on both sides, plaintiff or defendant, prosecution or defense.

Tim Newman [00:17:25]:
Yeah, you would think that that's obviously the case. I mean, that they've got to be looking at all those types of things and And what you said earlier about the 2.5-hour close, I can't imagine doing a 2.5-hour talk and not having any type of real human emotion, just dry, whatever. That just, again, I keep coming back to it's making me tense just thinking about it. I couldn't sit there and listen to it. I don't know that I could actually do it without— You know, just becoming who I am. But all that stuff does really come into play when they, when they go in and they deliberate and make decisions on, on people's future, whether the, the, the defendant is, is guilty or innocent. And, and you all have a lot of, a lot on your, on your plate and responsibility. And you've got to, you truly have to, to think about all those things.

Tim Newman [00:18:29]:
You know, as a coach, I talk about it. But for what you do in your normal everyday job, it carries a ton of weight.

Michael Stockham [00:18:38]:
Like you said, it does in the, in the trial world. And I think it also in almost every other level of communication, it can be somewhat simpler. I mean, or similar. I know that it, you know, whether somebody is liable for money or guilty of a crime or whatnot, that's a big— those are big weights for lawyers to carry in the courtroom. One of the things you try to do in any communication, whether it's opening or closing or whatever, is you're trying to get points across that the jury or the recipient of your message can use to argue on your behalf later, right? You want your points and your arguments to be what your jurors are arguing with the other jurors about to try to persuade and get to the Verdict you want. Very similar to a lot of other areas in communication, especially in the business world. Take it to a sales perspective. You know that salesman who's meeting the initial person who's going to pitch or not pitch a software or a machine or something? He or she wants that person to have arguments in their arsenal when they go to the ultimate approver.

Michael Stockham [00:19:50]:
Whoever's going to have the whoever has the approval authority for that purchase, they want to communicate those argument points. So again, that's another thing to think about in these presentations is what tools can you give your audience to then argue on your behalf when you're not in the room? And that those are things that you need to think about ahead of time. This goes back to the idea of simplicity. You know, you need to understand your message. You need to make it as simple as possible. You need to break down the best points that you can make so that they're memorable and repeatable when you're not in the room.

Tim Newman [00:20:25]:
And as you say those things, I'm just thinking, from my perspective, how I think about it is, to me, it's about preparation and knowing exactly who you're talking to because you could be talking to 2 different people in the same business, or even you got 12 people in the jury. But knowing who you're talking to and what to say that's going to hopefully resonate with each of them, even though it may not be the exact same thing that's going to resonate with each of them. But that really does come back to the whole idea of preparation and knowing who you're talking to.

Michael Stockham [00:21:06]:
Absolutely. Audience is 100% key. So, take for example, a rather mundane topic. Texas just started in in the last year and a half, 2 years, what they call the Texas Business Court, which is an idea of trying to get a more streamlined business-friendly court system so that more and more companies will relocate here and capital will flow to Texas. Pretty dry subject, but I've spoken on that topic a lot to a number of different audiences, and the preparation and message To a room full of lawyers for like a continuing legal education unit, completely different than speaking to a group of corporate directors and/or CEOs wondering how this impacts their day-to-day business. And you need to think through who your audience is and what's beneficial to them. And if you're trying to persuade, you know, in the back of your mind, you're thinking, well, what's beneficial to me? Again, to give them the arguments to advance your position when you're not in the room. Yeah.

Tim Newman [00:22:14]:
Yeah. So let's, let's kind of switch gears here because, you know, we've been talking a lot about the legal things that you do and the real cases that you do, but you're also a bestselling fiction author. How does storytelling differ when the goal is Entertainment versus persuasion?

Michael Stockham [00:22:36]:
Good, good, good question. So, I'm not sure it differs all that much. So, effective persuasion is oftentimes entertainment because entertainment is the core function of keeping somebody or core thread, if you will, of keeping someone's attention. Think about the worst, most dry college lecture you ever made through in your career. Probably chock-full of information for the 115 minutes that that professor read notes out of a 3-ring binder for that day's lecture, but not very entertaining, so probably not very much retained at all. Whether across all spectrums of how you're trying to communicate, the The entertainment factor is a big deal. In fiction writing, the goal is to make them turn the next page. They have to be interested.

Michael Stockham [00:23:37]:
They have to be excited about going to the next page. And you're trying to get them to turn those pages as quickly as possible and then potentially invest in the next book in a series. So entertainment's key across all speaking platforms, I think, because that's just part of the human condition. We want to be entertained. We don't want to be bored. We don't want people wasting our time.

Tim Newman [00:24:02]:
Yeah. And it's— as you're talking, I told a story probably a week or so ago about, you know, how I actually read a book. Right. And so what is— I'll— I use a Kindle. I don't use— I don't do physical books just because I don't carry them around with me. I always have my iPad with me, right? So I'm not carrying books, I carry my iPad. And so I'll read the book. I generally don't go from page 1 to the end.

Tim Newman [00:24:34]:
I'll look at a chapter and, oh, that looks interesting. Unless it's a storybook, like a fiction book, like what you write, then I'll read start to finish. But I jump around. And then if I like the book, Then I'll go and I'll buy the audiobook and I'll listen to it in the car. And this is where it gets interesting because my attention span, we go back to attention spans. If I like the book, that doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to like the audio portion of it. Because if I go 5 minutes down the road and then I start to tune that out, then maybe that book wasn't as interesting to me as I thought it was. So my point is, go back to who your audience is and understanding how they're actually going to consume that content, whether it's in the written form or whether it's in the verbal form.

Tim Newman [00:25:28]:
It could be the exact same words. How they're going to consume that is also very important as well.

Michael Stockham [00:25:33]:
100%. And a lot of times when you're doing production on an audiobook, you and the The actual talent, whoever's reading the book, have to be on the same page. And and the person reading your book actually has to be excited about the book. It can't just be drudging through work for hire. They actually have to like it. And if you can't find somebody that likes it, you need to get different talent because otherwise the tone, the tenor, the interest of the voice is not gonna not gonna come through. And you know, people love having stories written. read to them, they like.

Michael Stockham [00:26:07]:
That's something that goes back to our childhood. I think it carries through all of our adult life that if it's interesting and fun and we get a sense of excitement from the voice telling the story, then we'll stick around.

Tim Newman [00:26:19]:
Mm-hmm.

Michael Stockham [00:26:20]:
Um, but, you know, take it back to a joke or telling a joke at a table. If, if you're telling a joke to friends and maybe you don't think it's funny, or maybe you're just making it too complicated, or you're half interested in it, then the audience won't be interested in it. So I think it runs across all spectrums. Speaker has to be— the speaker, whether by written word or audio, has to communicate an interest and excitement about the message.

Tim Newman [00:26:48]:
Yeah, it's so true. And so my wife's a real estate agent. And we spend a lot of time in the car going back and forth to see grandkids and that sort of thing. So we generally alternate what we listen to, whether it's a real estate podcast or for me, it could be a true crime, it could be a management podcast, it could be a book. And we were listening to a book that I really like. And after about half an hour in, she said, Tim, we got to turn it off. I can't do it. I can't do it anymore.

Tim Newman [00:27:28]:
And it was one that I really liked and it was a sales book that I'd kind of read and she'd read the book as well to try and get something out of it. But when you do those things and you're with other people, sometimes even if you both like the same subject, it's not going to resonate with them.

Michael Stockham [00:27:52]:
Yeah.

Tim Newman [00:27:54]:
But that's getting too far afield. One of the things I want to talk to you about is Gen Z and feedback. I love the story that you told me in one of our conversations about how one time a senior lawyer told you flat out that whatever you did sucked. Why was that feedback such a gift? And why do most people never truly improve Without it?

Michael Stockham [00:28:22]:
Great question. Um, yeah, so, and that, that sounds a little harsh, right? But, um, some of the best feedback I've ever received has been relatively brutal. Uh, I was in the middle of a trial working on a witness and something was going sideways and I wasn't really, I wasn't really registering it. But my paralegal, who had been in, who was, you know, 30 years a paralegal and had been in hundreds of trials, basically pulled me aside during the break and said, well, that sucked. You got to fix that. And then gave me a bullet point list of ways that I could do it. So the ability of somebody to be kind enough and brave enough to tell you that what you're doing isn't working is very, very, is a gift that you If you find those people that will tell you, hold on to them because they're very important.

Tim Newman [00:29:16]:
Yeah.

Michael Stockham [00:29:16]:
The flip side of that is, you know, you can't give feedback and tell somebody that something isn't working or, you know, in the original story that something sucks and then not tell them how to fix it. If you have the braggadocio, if you will, to tell somebody that it sucks or something isn't working, then have the kindness to explain your position and tell them how they could probably do it better. In your mind. Um, and I've found in the younger generations, there's a thirst for information. They're not, they're not tuned out. They don't, they're not lazy. They want to learn the profession. They want to have input.

Michael Stockham [00:29:57]:
Um, and they soak it up like a sponge. And some of that's how you communicate it, how you go about actually dealing with it.

Tim Newman [00:30:03]:
Yeah, it's Michael. It's, it's, it's so true. And when you're giving that feedback, especially let's just take it from that perspective. If somebody came to you and told you that sucked and you didn't trust that person, you didn't know that person, you're just going to kind of blow it off. Who are you? But when you build trust with people, and especially with the younger generations, you can come to them and give them harsh feedback and you can You can bring them along with you. And like you said, how are you going to fix it? You can't just say it sucked. You can't just say you did it wrong. Like I said, you've got to give them the way forward.

Tim Newman [00:30:44]:
But before you do any of that stuff, you have to actually build that trust and understand. Again, you're so right. They want that. They're looking for that. It's just how our generations are communicating with their generation, how they're communicating with us. That's the real, the real challenge. We have to give them that opportunity and start reaching out to them and building that trust and building those connections to be able to do those things.

Michael Stockham [00:31:10]:
100%. And some of it comes from just a perception of criticism. I mean, criticism, criticism can be mean. It can be misguided. It can be used for power plays, etc. But it's also a blessing. So it's how you deliver the message. And quite frankly, if you're new to something, whether you're our age and undertaking a new, a new endeavor, or you're 23 or 24 and just starting a professional career, you have to be willing to hear the criticism and not immediately, not immediately feel like it's some sort of anger or violence to you, or somebody's picking on you or something.

Michael Stockham [00:32:00]:
I mean, you have to be— you have to have your skin tough enough to hear how to improve, I guess, is a way to say it.

Tim Newman [00:32:08]:
Yeah. And that's— I think that's one of the biggest issues with the younger generation. They don't have that grit. They don't have the resilience because they've been told they've been great for so long at whatever it is they do, you know, loading the dishwasher or Or, you know, closing the door. There's, you know, I— and again, I'm a Gen X, grew up, you know, '70s and early '80s. You know, nothing really bothers me. Right. You know, I took a class a couple of months ago and the person was critiquing my PowerPoint slide deck, and she was kind of dancing around the issue.

Tim Newman [00:32:55]:
And I said, just please just tell me what it is. She said, well, people get so upset when I correct them. I said, well, that's why I'm paying you to help me fix these things. And she said, well, I appreciate you doing that, but I don't want to be too harsh. I said, look, you're not going to hurt my feelings. This is part of the problem. You have to be able to You as the person who is the educator, the teacher, or the person who's leading something have to be willing to take those steps.

Michael Stockham [00:33:28]:
Absolutely.

Tim Newman [00:33:28]:
And we have to be willing to accept it because we put ourselves in that position. Please tell me, I'm paying you or I'm coming to you for this. You don't have to worry about my feelings. But that's not how the younger generation generations view things.

Michael Stockham [00:33:43]:
Yeah, I, I tend to agree somewhat. I tend to agree with most of that. I think there's some folks that think, and I don't know where this came from, and partly it's where I was educated through the legal system, right, with the Socratic method and other stuff. But right, I think sarcasm, being snide, being mean or embarrassing people is, is somewhat how some people teach. And I find that reprehensible, but it is, you know, it's the idea of someone feeling superior in the education.

Tim Newman [00:34:20]:
Right.

Michael Stockham [00:34:21]:
I think firm, reasonable criticism delivered with a— in an upbeat manner is the way to go. And just telling somebody things don't work, Shouldn't— I mean, necessarily as a starting point isn't a bad place to be. So for take, take example, PowerPoint. If I— when I do a PowerPoint, I don't— I've suffered through thousands of PowerPoints that have case quotes where the person puts up an Excel spreadsheet or a chart and says, well, I know this is kind of small and what you would see if you could see it And I'm thinking, well, why put it up in the first place?

Tim Newman [00:35:03]:
Right.

Michael Stockham [00:35:03]:
Right. So if I ever do a PowerPoint, I would bet you in a 15-page slide deck, I might have 25 words. Mostly they're concepts and/or a picture to hold the concept, because the whole purpose of a PowerPoint is not to do storytime and just read it to the audience. The purpose of the PowerPoint is to introduce a concept And then have the audience immediately focus back on you and the message that you're trying to deliver orally. That's the whole concept of it.

Tim Newman [00:35:39]:
That's the whole concept. Yeah.

Michael Stockham [00:35:41]:
Yeah.

Tim Newman [00:35:41]:
Yeah. And when one of my biggest pet peeves is when I was teaching, you know, you assign the students an assignment where they've got to do a presentation. The first thing they do is open PowerPoint and they start to script their presentation. Presentation on PowerPoint. And I finally got to the point where I said, you can't use PowerPoint. I don't want a visual. I just want you to, I want you to be able to talk through this presentation. And, you know, I think one of the things that you, that you do and that you're teaching your younger associates of the whole idea of eye contact, using names, talking to strangers, talking to Uber drivers, those little things where you can get some repetitions of actually having conversations with people that you don't know so you get comfortable is such an important skill as well.

Michael Stockham [00:36:41]:
100%. I forgot that you and I talked about that. But yeah, you're right. I mean, it is underrated in communication and human connection. To get good at what, you know, a lot of people call the gift of gab, right? And you have hundreds of opportunities in a week to do that, whether it's talking to the cashier or, you know, picking up quickly the waitress or waiter's name at the restaurant and having an interaction, or in an Uber or a taxi, or talking to the person next to you on a plane or on the train. Um, and it doesn't have to be intrusive, but just learning how to, to almost like pick up basketball, to learn how to pick up a conversation and carry it for 30 to 40 seconds to a minute and, and figure out how to connect with a human being. That's hugely, uh, beneficial to persuasion. It's how you learn.

Michael Stockham [00:37:39]:
It's how someone who is perceived as a highly educated, lawyer from a big firm can interact with someone with an 8th grade education that is driving or working off the back of a sanitation truck on a jury. I mean, you have to be able to figure out how to talk to people. And if you give up those opportunities, you're just giving up an opportunity to make yourself a better communicator.

Tim Newman [00:38:08]:
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I'm somebody that, that when I get into an Uber, I'm already starting the conversation with, with whoever that person is.

Michael Stockham [00:38:20]:
Yeah.

Tim Newman [00:38:20]:
Especially so, like, I was in Dallas about a month or so ago, and I haven't been to Dallas in years. And I said, what, what's your favorite thing to do when you're off? Just to Because I had some free time, maybe something I could do, whatever. And the ride from the airport to the hotel that he was dropping me off at was maybe 15, 20 minutes. And he talked for almost 10 minutes of just that.

Michael Stockham [00:38:53]:
Yeah, absolutely. Well, that— I mean, a lot of people don't— I mean, I think a lot of folks are afraid of how to keep a conversation going. And it's It's, uh, fun that you mentioned what's your favorite thing to do, because I think what's your favorite followed by whatever you put on it is an easy way to, to make sure conversations don't die. So if you run into somebody, you could be like, well, what's your favorite part of living here? Or you're at a restaurant, what's your favorite part of this kind of food? Or what's your favorite book or something? And, and what it does is oftentimes shakes people out of their normal sort of rut, and they have to think, well, what do I, what do I really like? And suddenly they're engaged in the conversation and you're, you've asked them something they're excited about. And so it's going to automatically kick off a good rapport because they understand, if you ask the question sincerely, that you're actually sincerely curious in them. And there's nothing people like to visit more about than themselves. So you give them an easy entree into a conversation and literally with what's your favorite or what did you really like? I mean, you could run a conversation for an hour by probably speaking less than 100 words and have an incredible conversation with someone, uh, drawing out what they think is really exciting about their life or what they like.

Tim Newman [00:40:20]:
Absolutely. Absolutely.

Michael Stockham [00:40:21]:
Yeah.

Tim Newman [00:40:22]:
So, so what would you say that you'd want people to understand about persuasion that would change how they show up at work, interviews, on stage, what have you?

Michael Stockham [00:40:31]:
Goes back to a comment you made earlier that it's all preparation, right? There's the old adage, if you fail to prepare, you're preparing to fail. So you should think through your message, especially if it's in a professional setting, if it's an interview or presentation or something to a jury or a sales pitch or whatever, you should be working through that in your mind. On the flip side of that is this idea of talking to everybody and trying to get good at the gift of gab, because that's where preparation meets improvisation. And that, that confluence, if you will, really makes you a believable, likable, charismatic character and, and a lot more Um, it's a lot more likely that somebody's going to glom onto, remember, argue for, or remember your presentation.

Tim Newman [00:41:20]:
Yeah. Now, how has being a novelist sharpened the way you communicate in your, in your professional life?

Michael Stockham [00:41:29]:
It has made me a lot more succinct, I'll tell you that.

Tim Newman [00:41:32]:
Okay.

Michael Stockham [00:41:33]:
The idea of sort of some of the, the rules of the road and the, the style I try to to infuse in my novels have made my writing and my communicating as a lawyer a lot tighter. Because it took— there is a— it is one thing to write a 15-page brief. It's another thing to write a 400-page manuscript. And so it takes a lot of focus. It takes a lot of attention. It takes a lot of discipline to live by some of your own writing rules. And that reflex, that muscle memory on writing, communicating, etc., has really benefited my ability to communicate in my profession.

Tim Newman [00:42:13]:
That's, that's an awesome way to think about it, especially when, you know, when you're writing the book. You know, we talked about reading the room. When you're writing the book, you don't have that opportunity. So you really have to think really critically and carefully about the words that are used on each page.

Michael Stockham [00:42:34]:
100%. Trying to make every word count, trying to make every sentence alive, trying to make every paragraph not dull. It really becomes a discipline. And like I said, the muscle memory on that is something that I've really benefited from and quite frankly, at this point, enjoy quite a bit. I've actually gotten to the point where I read a lot. I mean, I read, I have a Kindle too, so I probably go through 3 novels a week from different writers.

Tim Newman [00:43:03]:
Okay.

Michael Stockham [00:43:04]:
And oftentimes I'll find myself stopping and looking at a paragraph and recognizing their style and then rewriting the paragraph in my style. I'll actually be like, well, this is how I would do it if I did it. So it becomes an exercise in, in how to hone what I want to do as a writer.

Tim Newman [00:43:23]:
So that, that's a, that's, that's an interesting thought. Because I wouldn't say a lot of people, that may not even be true, at least from my perspective. When I'm, when I'm reading something, I don't ever, I don't ever really think about how I would, how I would write that.

Michael Stockham [00:43:44]:
It's a fun mental exercise.

Tim Newman [00:43:45]:
I'm sure it is. Now that I think about it, because you're, you're— but to be able to do that, you have to be a good writer as well, right? I mean, you have to understand You have to understand the nuance of writing, I would think, because it's a— you're taking somebody's— that's not necessarily true either, because— So I'm contradicting myself. Because even, even as you write and you, and you would say when you do academic writing, you're taking— you take somebody else's thoughts, somebody else's words, and you, and you're paraphrasing it into your document. Obviously, you're giving them citation, you're giving them credit for it, but you have to paraphrase it. So, I guess I have done that, right?

Michael Stockham [00:44:28]:
100%. A lot of people do it. We do it when we meet somebody at a restaurant. We confer a funny story that somebody told us about happened to them at work or something like that. So, we do rewrite stuff all the time. For me, it's just become a bit of a fun mental game, but it does It does allow you, especially if it's something that you like, if you're reading somebody that you really like and you enjoy, it can be fun to look at a paragraph and be like, well, how would I change it? What would I do? You know, when you write, when you have to hold a 400-page manuscript together, you do have a stylistic set of rules. You do have some guardrails, for lack of a better word. I think, although I think that word is way overused these days, but you do have some sort of standards in your own mind about how you want your writing to be.

Michael Stockham [00:45:23]:
And so taking somebody else's paragraph and rewriting it in your voice can be a real worthwhile exercise.

Tim Newman [00:45:31]:
Yeah, it's, it's really interesting. I never really truly thought about it like that. But, you know, I guess somebody told me a number of years ago to be a good lawyer, you have to be a good writer.

Michael Stockham [00:45:48]:
I think that's— I think that is true across a lot of different spectrums. You know, in the transactional corporate world, you have to be so precise in what you're talking about, the terms, rights, and obligations between the parties, and you have to be really careful because I've had cases that come down to the Litigation of where a comma goes, and whether that you know modifies certain rights or makes it a condition or or something else. So you have to be very precise in that. As a trial lawyer, you have to be very precise in your persuasion in how you're trying to ask somebody whether it's a court or a jury. You have to be very careful to be very precise in your writing. And like I said. The, the speed of modern life moves so quickly that if what you can do is explain who you are, what you want, and why you win in the first 30 seconds, and then give an overview, like, of 250 to 500 words, which is a 2 or 3 minute overview of the, what you're gonna explain to people and how you're going to explain it to them.

Tim Newman [00:47:00]:
Mm-hmm.

Michael Stockham [00:47:01]:
And then go forward and hit those milestones so that they know where you are in that original synopsis.

Tim Newman [00:47:07]:
Right.

Michael Stockham [00:47:07]:
I think that's a pretty good skeleton for any presentation where you need to be speaking for 20, 30, or 60 minutes or more.

Tim Newman [00:47:17]:
Mm-hmm. How long does it take you to write your novels?

Michael Stockham [00:47:24]:
It can take, um, It comes in fits and spurts depending on my schedule and how much sort of mental focus and energy I have.

Tim Newman [00:47:35]:
Yeah.

Michael Stockham [00:47:37]:
It would be— my ultimate goal is to get up and write one chapter per day. That's another one of just my style rules. My chapters don't go beyond 1,250 words. So it would be For my own benefit and for my own novel career, it would be my benefit to get up and do one chapter a day to move the projects forward. Modern life doesn't always afford me that opportunity, so I've had periods of time where I do that for 60 days in a row, and I've had a period of time where I just got a brainstorm and excitement about the project and wrote 25 chapters in a week. So I would say 9 months to a year, and we're trying to get that down to 4 to 6 months per novel so that we can start putting out more material in the series that I'm writing.

Tim Newman [00:48:33]:
Wow, Michael, that's, that's amazing with everything that you're doing. So the first book I wrote Took me 3— took me 3 years. It was a 10-chapter, maybe, maybe it was 10 chapters, maybe 12 textbook. Took me, took me 3 years to do. And oh my goodness, it's amazing that you could do that. But that's, that's that creative, that creative piece and that, you know, the, you know, being a good writer and being able to take the thought and put it on paper in a way that makes sense. Not many people have that, that, that, that skill set.

Michael Stockham [00:49:21]:
Some of it's inertia too. I think a lot of people—

Tim Newman [00:49:23]:
Oh, that's true. Yeah.

Michael Stockham [00:49:24]:
A lot of people don't allow themselves the gift of writing something. You know, everybody always— you run a lot across a lot of people who say they want to write a novel or write a book or do something. But I think they, they worry about the criticism, or they get started and they immediately look at it and they say, well, that stinks, I don't, you know, and it slows down. So, you know, they have to trust in the process. What you put down first is not what you publish in the end, but you need to get the idea out, get it on paper, and then you can start working with it. And like I said, if you have rules or the way that you want to hone to a specific style, then you have some guidelines that you can start working on it, improving it, making it your voice, and moving the project forward in a more routine manner.

Tim Newman [00:50:18]:
What are the— what's the background with your Jake Fox legal thriller series? What's the basis of it?

Michael Stockham [00:50:28]:
So there's a couple of— it comes from 2 motivations. One is the very first book I wrote, Confessions of an Accidental Lawyer, was loosely based on a couple of personal situations, a trial with a prisoner in a civil rights case, and then essentially the effort of my wife and I to make it through IVF. And when I turned to Jake Fox, I decided that I wanted to be free of any sort of loosely based on reality, because when you do that, you want to make it— you spend a lot of time thinking that I want this to be historically accurate, which is very difficult when you're trying to be creative at the same time.

Tim Newman [00:51:10]:
Mm-hmm.

Michael Stockham [00:51:11]:
So it was more freeing to do Jake Fox, and Jake just comes from a simple impulse to set up what I thought was a good theme for— for that humans enjoy, which is always the redemption story. Um, and it basically takes a big city lawyer whose life falls apart on him for a number of different reasons and has him go home to a little town in Texas called Haven and, um, try to live a normal life when, um, suddenly he is appointed to represent a teenager accused of murdering her father. And it just goes from there. Wow.

Tim Newman [00:51:50]:
That's awesome. Well, where should people go if they, if they want to learn how storytelling, persuasion, and clarity actually work and stay connected with you and your books?

Michael Stockham [00:52:00]:
So a couple of places they can find me. They can always find me at michaelstockham.com. They can email me at michael@michaelstockham.com, and I'm happy to interact with them. The books are all on Amazon. So under know, just look up Michael Stockham or Jake Fox on Amazon and you'll be able to get to those, those books as well. And they're pretty easy to find.

Tim Newman [00:52:25]:
And, and, uh, Michael, I appreciate you taking some time with us and, and spend time with us today. And, uh, fascinating information. I really do appreciate it. And we'll talk to you soon.

Michael Stockham [00:52:36]:
Perfect. It's been my pleasure.

Tim Newman [00:52:38]:
Be sure to visit speakingwithconfidencepodcast.com to get your free ebook, Top 21 Challenges for Public speakers and how to overcome them. You can also register for the Formula for Public Speaking course. Always remember, your voice has the power to change the world. We'll talk to you next time. Take care.