Tim Newman [00:00:09]:
Welcome back to Speaking with Confidence, the podcast that helps you build the soft skills that lead to real results. Communication, storytelling, public speaking, and showing up with confidence in every conversation that counts. I'm Tim Newman, a recovering college professor turned communication coach, and I'm thrilled to guide you on a journey to becoming a powerful communicator. Today's guest is John Ball. John is a keynote and presentation coach who mostly works with professional speakers, coaches and leadership teams, helping their communication go from competent to captivating. He's the host of the present Influence Podcast, the professional speaking show for experts who want to create impact, influence and inspiration with their talks. John also co hosts the Coaching Clinic podcast with his good friend Angie. John's a keynote speaker who talks on topics like personal mastery and bridging the leadership communication skills gap.

Tim Newman [00:01:00]:
He also publishes a small but punchy LinkedIn newsletter related to his podcast. He's a bit cheeky and likes to joke around. He's got stories and lots of them. He says he's not going to share any not safe for work ones, but hopefully we can persuade him to share some good ones. John, welcome to the show. This is going to be so much fun.

John Ball [00:01:22]:
You know, that's quite an introduction. Thank you.

Tim Newman [00:01:23]:
Well, you know, it's, it's what you do. And I love, I love the fun part. I like it when people, you know, don't take yourself too seriously. And one of the things I did really like about, in your bio and I joke about a lot, did you say you have a face for audio content and a body for birthday cake?

John Ball [00:01:42]:
That's me.

Tim Newman [00:01:43]:
And I laugh because I tell people I've got a face for radio and a voice for silent movies.

John Ball [00:01:48]:
And, and yet you're here doing this.

Tim Newman [00:01:52]:
Yeah, and, and that's, that's the fun part. I, I, I think I, I, you know, people take themselves a little bit too seriously and, and, and everything has to be, you know, locked, you know, buttoned up and locked in and very professional. And we're going to talk about that a little bit, but I, I, I just can't do it. I, you know, it's, life's too short. Let's have some fun in the things we're doing.

John Ball [00:02:11]:
Yeah, yeah. There's enough, enough troubles in the world without us needing to add to them or, or take it all too seriously. We a bit now and again. It's much better.

Tim Newman [00:02:21]:
Absolutely. So you know, you're from the UK but you're currently living in Spain.

John Ball [00:02:26]:
That's right.

Tim Newman [00:02:28]:
Talk a little bit about how living and Traveling around the world has influenced the way you show up as a speaker and a coach. Because, you know, here in the United States, you know, a lot of us, we don't do that, the type of traveling that people from other countries do. So kind of give us a little bit of that background for.

John Ball [00:02:47]:
Well, I, I feel like I've been very fortunate in my life to have. I kind of lucked into becoming a flight attendant for 12 years. And it feels almost accidental more than anything else, but I thoroughly enjoyed it. And, and so I got to see the world and work around the world in different environments as well. And more than anything I learned, you know, as much as cultures can be different, sometimes even very different to what we used to, there are always ways to connect with people. There's always ways to make people laugh. If you can share a language, sometimes if you can just be understood in some way, there's always ways to communicate and connect with people and to, to unite. So I do think that that's one of the things that definitely global travel has taught me over the years.

John Ball [00:03:35]:
And I have this personal philosophy that wherever I am can be home if I choose for it to be home. Even if I'm in a hotel room somewhere, I can choose to have that feel at home here. I can be at home so I don't get homesick when I travel around. And, and so I can feel comfortable and confident wherever I am and connect with people around me that there's always opportunities for that too. So travel has opened, open my mind in many ways, but it's also expanded my horizons for what's possible and for my comfort levels. So be able to feel like I can fit in with or at least feel comfortable just about anywhere in the world.

Tim Newman [00:04:19]:
Yeah. And how does, how do you find humor? That, that really kind of is something that's relatable no matter where you are. That also helps, you know, build that, that comfort level.

John Ball [00:04:30]:
Yeah. Sometimes it is just about playfulness more than telling jokes.

Tim Newman [00:04:36]:
Right.

John Ball [00:04:36]:
And so it isn't necessarily that I need to do a stand up routine for if I'm in Japan and no one's going to understand it necessarily, it's not necessarily that. But if I'm just little light hearted about things, a bit playful, I'm smiling, I'm warm, I show warmth to other people that they feel that they, they can do that as well. And I know that sometimes they said that some cultures don't necessarily feel like they are that warm. And yet my experience has always been that you will find the People who are, when you show those things for yourself, people, the people are looking to connect. People are looking for those opportunities. So showing up with, with warmth and a desire to connect and to understand each other and to have new experiences, learn from is always opportunities that feel like, they always feel like growth and development. For me, I always have something to learn from others and I hope they find something to learn from me too.

Tim Newman [00:05:28]:
Yeah. And I think that's so important, you know, to be able to learn from others, you have to be open to doing that too. You have to be open to the way other people see things, the way other people connect, the way that they learn, listen and communicate. That's. And I think that's one of the biggest ways that, that biggest ways to learn is, is just by being open to it, you know, and so then, then it just becomes natural. I mean, there's, I think there's a way that, you know, we can be very intentional about it and there's times for that, but there's also times to just being open to, to letting things happen and learning that way as well.

John Ball [00:06:08]:
Yeah. I think certain, certain, certain gestures and facial expressions are pretty universal and we can pyramid and that those are the things that tend to give people the initial impression of what we're like as a person anyway. And so if we establish those things, the language issue is less problematic because we still tend to like people who we feel we like, even if we don't fully understand each other.

Tim Newman [00:06:31]:
Right, right. And you said when you, when we first started this that it's not about necessarily telling jokes all the time, but you do do some open mic comedy and which I think is, which I think is awesome. I don't know that I could ever do that because I don't think I'm funny. But why do you believe every speaker should try stand up at least once?

John Ball [00:06:55]:
I think because it is so scary. It was something that scared me so much and I wasn't sure I could do it. There's always that thing of, is what comes out of my head that might be funny to me. Are other people going to find that funny as well? And we don't know. And sometimes we're a bit afraid of finding out. We don't really want to put ourselves in that situation. Yeah. But there are, there are somewhat safe ways to do it.

John Ball [00:07:19]:
And I often will tell the story of, like I tell you about my very first ever time doing open mic. I'd been putting off forever, but just didn't want to do it. But I finally got Inspired by a guest on my show to go. To go for it, to do it. And she's been doing comedy for years and she still does open mic nights just, just for fun, just to connect with people and to try different things out. Right. Well, if you can still want to do that all this time, I should at least give it a go because I don't know what I'm missing. And so when I went there, I just gave myself permission to bomb.

John Ball [00:07:52]:
It's okay if I bomb. That's fine. I can do it. Success here is just me getting up on that stage, being scared to get up on that stage. If it all goes horribly wrong, fine, it goes horribly wrong, but I will have still done it. I've put myself forward, I've put myself at least into the situation where things could happen. Now a few people who are on before me did bomb, which so I was pretty lucky that the bar was set low, thankfully so. But it just made me feel more comfortable.

John Ball [00:08:22]:
It's like, okay, it's okay to bomb. Nothing happened to them, they survived it. They come off the stage, they're still smiling. One of them was even a professional comedian who just unfortunately bombed that particular night. And so I get up on stage, I did my act, I think I have to say, I think I got the most laughs of the night, which is great, but it was, it was amazing. Even if that hadn't happened, I was just so, so desperate to get back up and do it again. But the challenge of all of that, it was so confronting. And also having to take parts of your life and put them into a context that finds the funny and that finds the humor in life is a great reframe is whilst we shouldn't use comedy, stand up comedy for our own therapy, as such, it does have, it does have some effects like that because you are pushed into reframing things in your life that where there may have been pain or trauma.

John Ball [00:09:14]:
Even as a communicator, I think it's essential that you be able to at least add some lightness, some humor into your communication.

Tim Newman [00:09:22]:
Right.

John Ball [00:09:23]:
And unless you really never find anything funny or never laugh at things, you can probably find a way to be funny. You just need to know the right tools or setups to do that and create some material. And not everything's going to get a great laugh, but some stuff will if you can at least get some laughs or chuckles now and again and a talk or a presentation that take away, especially if it's a serious present. If you presenting end of end of year Results as I've. And they're not great. Going to be a bit of a serious meeting, but if you can add a bit of lightness to that, that's going to cut through the tension, it's going to put people at ease and it's going to make you seem like a much more engaging and charismatic leader as well.

Tim Newman [00:10:02]:
Yeah, it's. I love that you said that too. You know, for any number of different reasons. For, you know, first the whole idea of, of do a. Scared. Do it. Do it. I wouldn't say do it petrified, but.

Tim Newman [00:10:15]:
But yeah, do it as petrified as you are.

John Ball [00:10:18]:
Right.

Tim Newman [00:10:18]:
You know. Yeah, you know. You know. You know, if you think about all the times that we do other things. Scared, you know, whatever it is. You know, I'm married now, so I would never do this now. But when, when I was dating, going up and talking to a woman or asking for a date or. Right.

Tim Newman [00:10:35]:
You know, whatever we do all those other things. Scared or, or with, with trepidation. This is something that, like you said, nothing. What's the word? What's. What's the worst that's going to happen compared to what's the best thing that's going to happen? You know, you do an open mic night. Okay. The worst thing that's going to happen is you're going to buy them. The best thing that's going to happen is people are going to be laughing their heads off for, for maybe for days because they're going to go back and think about, oh, remember what John said? Remember that joke, John, Whatever it is.

Tim Newman [00:11:05]:
So, you know, so do. Do things when, when we're, when we're scared or when we're. We have some anxiety over it and stop thinking about what's the worst thing that's going to happen and start thinking about what's what. What the. What that best thing is.

John Ball [00:11:18]:
Yeah. If. If everything in life, if we always knew everything in life would go well, there'd never be any real challenge in life, would there be. There'd be nothing. No fear, nothing to overcome, no growth because of that as well. So we do grow from these sorts of challenges that we can present ourselves. And so, you know. Right.

John Ball [00:11:35]:
So what's the worst that could happen? Because probably the worst that could really happen is that things don't go the way you want them to and you get in your head about it and start beating yourself up about it. That's something that people just tend to do. But if you can lower the stakes for yourself and say, hey, look, it's no big deal. My. I lowered the stakes for myself. It's no big deal. If I bomb, I bomb. But I've done it.

John Ball [00:11:58]:
I've done the thing that I've been so afraid of for such a long time. That really is the thing going up and talking to that beautiful person who you think is very attractive. That might be scary because there's always that fear of rejection, not being rejected. And rejection stings. But again, what's the worst that could happen? You're no worse off if nothing happens than you were before. It's just, it's just the conversation that's going on in our head is, can either be. It can either be empowering or disempowering. It tends to be for most people, disempowering, oh, you suck.

John Ball [00:12:31]:
You're not a good girl. You're not attractive enough, or they didn't like whatever was going on for you weren't funny enough. You didn't. Nobody laughed. We beat ourselves up.

Tim Newman [00:12:39]:
Exactly. And you know, as, as I, as I think about it, when I asked my wife to marry me, she, she told me she had to think about it, you know, so you think, you, so you think about rejection. And when I asked her dad, he told me no. So it's. You gotta laugh. I mean, I got all kinds of stories about being rejected, so you just become numb to it and.

John Ball [00:13:03]:
But it wasn't the end of the story, right?

Tim Newman [00:13:04]:
No, it's not the end of the story.

John Ball [00:13:06]:
Right.

Tim Newman [00:13:06]:
It's just, just like anything else. And you know, one of the other things that I really like that you mentioned was the whole idea of charisma. And is charisma something? You know, I talk to people. Some people say charisma can be coached, can be built. Others say that it's, you either have it or you don't. I'm in the, in the camp of you can develop charisma. Charisma. What do you, what are you thinking? What are your thoughts on that?

John Ball [00:13:32]:
100%. I think you can develop charisma. Some people do have it very natural, seem to have it very naturally. And that's great when they do. I think some of the main elements of charisma, especially as a speaker or presenter, are really just. It comes from various research, one part of it being from Vanessa Van Edwards, who has some amazing research and books on this topic. But just being on stage and portraying the qualities of warmth and competence. So if you come across someone who has warmth about you and someone who is like, it's relatable.

John Ball [00:14:03]:
We like. Like people who are warm, not people who are frosty cold. And we like people who seem to know what they're talking about and have some level of competence with that. If you can show that you have those things, you're already a big part of the way there. But I think people tend to think of charisma in terms of you have to be, always be the life and soul of the party. I think it gets very tied to extroversion.

Tim Newman [00:14:25]:
Yes.

John Ball [00:14:26]:
And they're not the same thing. And I do think charisma can be learned and can be applied in particular situations. Maybe not every part of your life, but ultimately there are. You know, it was interesting to me that. And I'll just say this. So many people who do get into talking about charisma get into it because their initial interest in it is dating.

Tim Newman [00:14:48]:
Yes.

John Ball [00:14:48]:
And getting laid. Right. That's. That's why a lot of people who talk about this or even teach it, get into it in the first place. And that wasn't the case for me. It wasn't something that I thought, I need to get more charisma so I can, you know, get. Be more successful dating or not. And that wasn't really the case.

John Ball [00:15:06]:
It was more a case of being interested in what makes people influential, what makes people persuasive, that I've been fascinated in for years and years and. And starting to pull that apart and understand. I want to get into the. What are the principles that make somebody more appealing, more persuasive, more attractive, more charismatic? And it is. A lot of it is from knowing who you are and owning it, being okay with your own flaws, your own faults, being aware of what they are, being unashamed of them, unapologetic for living your life, owning your mistakes, admitting to them and showing that you've learned from them, but also being interested in other people, not putting your ego above them. There's so many different elements. There's more as well. But these are some things that are at the heart of charisma.

John Ball [00:15:59]:
There's people who really show an interest in you, who ask you questions. They just feel really warm, and you just want to keep answering their questions. That's charisma. That's something you remember them. You feel like, oh, wow, they were nice. They were really interested. And you probably get a warm feeling from them.

Tim Newman [00:16:16]:
Yeah, yeah. And I love that you said that. Number one is that you're showing interest in other people, because that right there to me, is something that really builds a connection as well. Even if you're talking about something that you may not necessarily agree with, but if you've got. If you're showing that that person that you're interested in what they're saying, that maybe they may be the most important person in the room, that's something that's going to really build that connection as well.

John Ball [00:16:48]:
Yeah. That quote that's often attributed to Maya Angelou, she may have said it, but she didn't originate it. That people won't always remember what you say, but they'll always remember how you made them feel. Right. And I think that's very true. This is about generating emotion in people, feeling connection. And that could only come from genuine interest. Some.

John Ball [00:17:12]:
Some elements of CRISPR can be faked. I'm not going to pretend that they can't. And you should watch out for that because it's like there is just evidence that sociopaths, psychopaths are understand these principles and are able to act within them and come across as people who have charisma. And if they have charisma, but they're also showing dark traits that also show, maybe they're a bit bullying, maybe they're super dominant, maybe they always need a bit of praise and support. Maybe they are always putting other people down to feel better. They don't like any kind of criticism. These are all. Those are the red flags that will say, yes, all right, this is.

John Ball [00:17:48]:
This is potentially somebody who might be a bit sociopathic. They might be at least a bit very narcissistic.

Tim Newman [00:17:54]:
Yes.

John Ball [00:17:55]:
These are dark, what they call dark triad traits that you really want to just a flag for yourself. Because they could indicate that that person is not a good person. They're probably not that genuine. They are pretending the charisma is an act.

Tim Newman [00:18:09]:
Exactly. And those types of things will eventually show their heads.

John Ball [00:18:14]:
Right.

Tim Newman [00:18:14]:
I mean, if maybe not to you initially, but maybe that person could have done it to somebody else and then they see that they're treating you that way and they say, now I really see what this person is about what this person is doing. And I think that's one of the things that really kind of separates is charm and charisma. Right?

John Ball [00:18:39]:
Yeah, yeah.

Tim Newman [00:18:41]:
I think charisma is more, as I would see, more genuine. Charm is an act.

John Ball [00:18:47]:
Yeah, it can be. I remember my grandmother saying to me when I was a child, beware of charming men. She said she was quite right as well. Something to at least pay attention to because it could indicate that there is some toxicity beneath that. But it doesn't always so.

Tim Newman [00:19:05]:
Right.

John Ball [00:19:05]:
It's just Something to be aware of if someone's buttering you up, complimenting you all the time on those kinds of things. Love bombing you, it's called. A lot of this stuff ties into. I'm very interested in cults. I don't know if you've ever looked into cults and how they operate. Not just religious, any kind of cult, personality cults, all of that. They operate on the same kind of principles. These are just like cults of one person, small group cults, cults of personality, cults of religion.

John Ball [00:19:30]:
But they operate on the same principles and they're all kind of controlling, bullying, power, power positioning. And when you understand those sorts of principles, very powerful. I think it's good for anyone to know that because I think knowledge does give you. It's like, like getting your shots is a bit of a mute, a bit of immunity. Not guarantee, but it's some immunity from these things that you're more likely to recognize. Recognize when you're confronted with them.

Tim Newman [00:19:58]:
And how does that really relate to the whole idea of knowing yourself? Because you mentioned that and I'm a big believer and we, at least here in the States, we don't really teach people how to critically think about themselves and really get to know who they are and what they're all about. How does that relate to that?

John Ball [00:20:20]:
John? I. I definitely been in periods of my own life where I haven't really felt like I knew who I was or what I was about. I think most people can probably relate to that at some point and. And I no longer think that it's a journey so much to. To uncover that as more of a decision of that you. You kind of decide who you want to be showing up as in life, what's important to you, what really matters, and how you want to live and experience your own life. Do you want a life that has good positive challenge in it or do you want a life that then just kind of rolls along? Massive comfort level, no real challenges. Just try and get through it, get to the end of it as comfortably as possible.

John Ball [00:21:04]:
You know, I choose to have a life that has good positive challenge in it.

Tim Newman [00:21:08]:
Yes.

John Ball [00:21:09]:
And so I create a lot of those challenges for myself because I don't. I've tried the coasting, I've tried the smooth sailing stuff and it's boring, boring. And you don't feel like you're really getting anywhere and you don't feel like you really know yourself. So I think until you do start challenging yourself and interacting with other people, you don't really know how you, how you want to be, who you want to be showing up as in this world, it is making those decisions. Who do I want to be showing up as in this life? How do I want to experience my life? Because I can either be affecting people positively, or it can be infecting them with negativity and other things as well. So, you know, there's really the choices that we make. Define, define who we are. Rather than some X marks the spot treasure hunt to try and find the real you.

John Ball [00:21:59]:
It really is the choices and decisions that you want to make of how you want to show up in your life and how you want to. How you want others to experience you as well, as much as how you want to experience things for yourself.

Tim Newman [00:22:10]:
Yeah. And, you know, I think back, you know, I've had a couple, you know, periods of my life, or more than a couple, let's just say a few periods of my life where I've kind of fallen into that comfort, you know, and not growing and not. Not doing the things that I knew I wanted to do or were.

John Ball [00:22:34]:
Getting.

Tim Newman [00:22:34]:
To the places I knew I wanted to get. And one of the things that I found with me is, you said it, negativity starts to. To creep in. And I'm not the positive person for other people that I want to be. And I can see the negativity and how I'm treating other people. And sometimes it has taken me a little bit to get out of that, to move forward, but understanding where we are and being able to move forward, I think is really important as well.

John Ball [00:23:08]:
There's a simple principle in personal development, of course, and effect. You may have come across it before, but this is about living how we live. Do we live at cause or do we live in. In effect? Right. And so living at cause is choosing the path of your life, choosing how you want to show up, how you want to be experiencing your life. Living, in effect, is having that all decided for you. You get caught up in traffic in the morning, you're in a bad mood for the rest of the day. Someone else has affected your mood, your.

John Ball [00:23:33]:
And how you experience your life for that day, world events piling onto you. You get. We can easily get buried under all of that and the negativity. And yet we could choose something else. We don' to be buried under that.

Tim Newman [00:23:47]:
Right.

John Ball [00:23:48]:
We can make another choice for ourselves. Well, yeah, there's plenty of unhappiness, plenty of sadness, tragic things going on in the world. But does us being miserable help that? Does us being miserable or are we kind of just adding to the problem, Whereas perhaps we could be being a bit more being of service in some way. That service is just putting a smile on someone's face or helping someone out or doing a random act of kindness or whatever it could be. But as soon as we start to move into the service mindset for others, that it's not all about us and our fulfillment and our gratification, then I think we have much more possibility to live a more fulfilled life than if we're only concerned about what we're getting.

Tim Newman [00:24:30]:
Out of the deal and doing what we do. We talk about. It's not about us all the time. Right. And especially from a speaking perspective, it's not about us. I think you're the first person that's mentioned that it's not about us ever.

John Ball [00:24:46]:
Yeah, right.

Tim Newman [00:24:48]:
And that's. But that's, that's. That's right. I mean, when we're, when we're dealing with other people, it's not about. It's about us adding value and showing other people and that sort of thing. And I think that's important for the audience to get and grasp and think on that for a few minutes.

John Ball [00:25:06]:
It's about us to. Only to the extent of the decisions that we're making of how we want to show up and how we want other people to feel when they're interacting with us. Like, what are we aiming, what are we actually trying to put out there into the world? If we're not conscious about that, then it's just whatever happens to be going on that day. Whereas if we're more conscious about that, there's a good chance that people are going to feel much, much happier, much. They're going to want to interact with us more. If we're showing up as a. With high value, with good energy, with positivity toward them, with warmth at least, or understanding, compassion, all those good things, empathy, all the things we hope and want and how people will have and show towards each other. And it's hard to deal with life when we.

John Ball [00:25:49]:
When we encounter people who aren't like that or situations that aren't like that. But when you've made those decisions for yourself, it does then just become about everyone else. It's like you're doing this for. For them, serving other people. Right? Because that's where you will find greater fulfillment ultimately. If you're only trying to fill your own bucket, there's never going to be enough. We see it over and over again. It's like there's only so much fame, you can have.

John Ball [00:26:16]:
There's only so much money you can have. And I see a lot of people who do have, like, high levels of success in one particular area often will start to focus on philanthropy and helping other people because that's where they really start to find meaning.

Tim Newman [00:26:31]:
Exactly.

John Ball [00:26:31]:
Themselves in their lives.

Tim Newman [00:26:33]:
Exactly. And that's a perfect, perfect, perfect point. And I think you may appreciate this more than some. You know, when. When we came on and we got on. Yes. I was doing great. I'm doing awesome.

Tim Newman [00:26:48]:
Right. And I say that all the time. Whether that's. Whether that's on. I'm really doing great and doing awesome or sarcastically. And whoever I'm talking to never really knows because, number one, I don't know what's going on and that person's life. And maybe if a smile, maybe if there's an uplifting things and I could be that person. That's great.

Tim Newman [00:27:09]:
And they don't need to know that I got cut off on the way into work. They don't need to know that I got an argument with. With my kids or my wife. They don't need. It's. It's not. It's not that. Let's be that positive person.

Tim Newman [00:27:22]:
And now the people within my inner circle know when I'm being sarcastic or not.

John Ball [00:27:26]:
Right.

Tim Newman [00:27:28]:
But. But the general public, I mean, and let's be uplifting and positive and bring that value to them and, you know, best day ever and put energy out there.

John Ball [00:27:39]:
Yeah. There's a guy, one of the first guys I started learning from in personal development. It's kind of not. He's not really. There's all sorts of problems there, so I'm not going to name names or anything like that. But one thing he said would say a lot that stuck with me. His answer would be feeling good for no good reason. I feel good.

John Ball [00:27:56]:
Yeah. No good reason. Just feel good. It's like, great. We should be more like that in our lives. It's like happiness isn't. Doesn't have to be this conditional thing. Feeling good doesn't have to be conditional on whether the weather's good that day or whether the.

John Ball [00:28:08]:
The news has been okay or whether your health is all right. It's a choice. It's a life decision that we have to try and keep making for ourselves. And that's also. Then what are we putting out there as well? It's like, well, we can be good for no good reason. This isn't about, you know, there's some people, you know, some people say, oh, well, you should just be Honest about. If you're not feeling great and someone says, how are you? You should tell them. No, I don't think.

John Ball [00:28:29]:
I don't necessarily think that's the case. If there's some. If they're a confidant, if there's someone who you feel comfortable sharing that stuff with and that's the right kind of circumstance and situation, but otherwise, I think, put out good energy. Put out. Yeah. Feeling good, feeling great. How are you today? Wherever we can, if we can spread a bit of joy and happiness, we make the world a bit of a better place.

Tim Newman [00:28:50]:
Yeah. And let's take that a step further, because even if you're not and you're sharing that with somebody who you don't know or is not, like you said in that confidant or inner circle, if you start acting that way, you're going to start feeling that way too.

John Ball [00:29:04]:
Right. Natural empathy, natural connection, mirror neurons and all that kind of thing. Yeah. We start to get into the states of the people around us. And so it's very easy to be pulled into emotional states by other people. So this is, again, taking that responsibility. Where do you want to be leading them emotionally? Do you want to pull them into your negativity as well? Or do you. Do you want to.

Tim Newman [00:29:28]:
Depends who you're talking to.

John Ball [00:29:29]:
Right, right. Yeah, it probably does, but. But it's. It is. It is those kinds of decisions of do you want to pull someone down or lift them up in this moment? And we don't always necessarily, more we practice lifting them up in that moment, the more likely we'll do it off, offhand. So I don't think there's anything negative or bad around. If someone says, how are you? I think I'm wonderful. I feel great.

John Ball [00:29:50]:
But I do think the sort of. The flaccid in between responses are probably the worst ones. To me. Yeah. Yeah, I'm all right. No energy to that. There's no. What am I supposed to infer from this?

Tim Newman [00:30:04]:
Yeah, exactly. And you know, I love this, this part of the conversation, and it all revolves around that whole. This whole idea of charisma again. But how do we kill our charisma? Because, I mean, if we're sitting in the audience, we see it. I mean, we see it almost immediately. Right. But what are some charisma killers?

John Ball [00:30:32]:
Overthinking is probably one of the worst ones, getting in our heads about stuff. Because as soon as we stop being fully present with an audience or with anyone that with. Then we are already creating a barrier between them. So if we Know if we mess up or make a mistake, if we can't laugh about it or improvise our way around it, just dance, dance around and carry on. If we let it take us out or say, oh, I can't, I can't continue. I've made a mistake. Now we're going to kill our charisma as well. As soon as, as soon as the audience feels like anyone's on the way down in any way, shape or form, you're done.

John Ball [00:31:08]:
Your charisma's dead. You're not going to be able to recover that as well. Seen people unravel emotionally on stage before now because they've had personal issues going on. Well, far better to maybe just cancel the gig or get someone else up there then to go put yourself through that in front of an audience of however many people as well, who get to, who get to watch the unraveling. But, you know, a lot of things in just how we relate to people, if your ego gets in the way, if you start thinking you're above people and talking at them rather than with them, there's a very different energy to that. So we want to be connecting, trying to talk, especially like the situation, the situation like this. You might be doing a podcast or a YouTube thing on your, on your own. So you're just talking to a camera and you still need to have some charisma.

John Ball [00:31:55]:
So you need to imagine that you're connecting with whoever is on the other side of that camera. You might really want to then imagine one of your good friends or maybe even your best friend is on the other side of the camera or there that you are talking, giving the talk or the presentation or wherever you're doing to them. Yeah, and maybe only to them, but it's for everyone as well. Yeah. So those are, those are some of the things that can, can really start to kill and damage your charisma if you let them. Yeah.

Tim Newman [00:32:23]:
And, and your last point, I resemble that remark. I, I, I do, I do. Obviously I do the, the an interview podcast and then I do a solo episode once a week too. And, and I hope that I'm getting better at it. But, you know, just talking into the camera by myself, not being able to see interaction is very, very difficult for me because I'm somebody who, as a recovering college professor teaching, I can see if I've lost them almost immediately and I can get back on track. But doing a, and they're only 10 to 15 minutes. But doing a 10 to 15 minutes, you know, teaching lesson with no interaction no facial expressions or nothing for me is. It's, oh, it's like death.

Tim Newman [00:33:12]:
Because, you know, and I think I'm getting better at it. But it's hard because I don't truly know until after I, you know, put it out there and I start getting feedback, you know, from the audience or, you know, again, my inner circle, who. Sometimes I'll send it to them, I'll say, you know, tell me before I post this, those types of things. But. But it's hard for me.

John Ball [00:33:39]:
It's something to develop over time. And I don't think we should be too, Too harsh on ourselves if we're working on that skill and developing it. I don't. I don't know that I couldn't be. I'm sure I could be better at it than I am. You know, it's like there's always room for growth and development. You know, even people who may have. May feel like they have mastery in this area.

John Ball [00:33:56]:
If you ever feel like you get to a place where you have nothing to learn, I think you're going to damage your own potential to be better than you are right now. Because realistically, I think if you're not better six months from now or 12 months from now than you are now, you're not growing, you're not developing. And if you. And if you're not growing, what are you doing? Stagnating at best.

Tim Newman [00:34:17]:
Right. And especially doing what we do. I think it's important that our audience sees us growing and doing. Doing the things to get better 100%.

John Ball [00:34:27]:
Now there's something some people may, maybe wouldn't feel comfortable leaving up, like early episodes of podcasts or old YouTube videos. I'll leave it all out there because I want people to be able to look at step one of the journey and then look at step 250 of the journey.

Tim Newman [00:34:45]:
Exactly.

John Ball [00:34:46]:
And see some growth, see some change there. It's like, oh, this isn't. Doesn't seem like the same guys was. That should be the case. There should be that level of growth and development. But none of us want to have to go through the dip and have to deal with the process of getting through the different levels of competence until it's more unconscious competence for us and we can just do things naturally until it's within us and we've embodied it. But that takes a long time, and most of us don't want to go through the process. We just want the instant fix, the instant gratification, and that plug into the matrix and download it all.

John Ball [00:35:22]:
And now I can do it. I know kung fu, you know.

Tim Newman [00:35:25]:
Yeah. And that's not really how it works. But how do you personally test and refine stories before bringing them on stage or working with a client?

John Ball [00:35:35]:
Oh boy. Stories are interesting. It does depend on the kind of story, personal stories particularly. I do really look to make sure that I understand what the transformation point is in the story. What the. Does the story fulfill the purpose of what it's going to be there for? And do I have better stories if maybe my own or maybe other people's, Do I have better stories that illustrate this before I put a story into a talk? You know, if it's storytelling competition, that's a little bit different, but. Right. But for putting something into a talk is that there has to be a purpose for the story.

John Ball [00:36:10]:
So it's there to illustrate a point. It maybe is there to help show a journey of transformation. And if it's my own transformation, then I'm going to look to tell the story as concisely as possible, but still make it a journey, still make it a story. And so when I'm constructing that, yeah, the key transformation point, the jump off point, I may even stop a story sometimes before I get to the transformation point and come back to it later with the transformation continuing.

Tim Newman [00:36:39]:
Oh, wow, that's good.

John Ball [00:36:40]:
Because it's like the hooks that you see starting to put into. Into a talk or you know, if you're going to open your talk up with a story, you might not close it until the finish of your talk because you're keeping that mental tab open for people in the brains. The story construction itself is really. Just make sure it makes logical sense. You may have to condense timelines. That's really important to think take out. It's like killing this expression, kill your darlings. You probably have to take out all the stuff that you might want to put in there.

Tim Newman [00:37:09]:
Yes.

John Ball [00:37:11]:
So you might first of all tell it the way you might tell it to a friend or to a loved one, but then you have to condense it from there. And so you have to kill your darlings, take out some of the stuff you like just to have the story be more punchy, more concise, more impactful. But there should be an emotional flow to the story as well. Because if there's no emotional buy in from your audience, the story is going to have less impact for them as well. So you want them to be to able to connect in with your story. Because what happens when we tell a story is that people start to visualize it generally not everyone's good with visualization, but most people will be putting themselves into it. You know, it's like the. They imagine themselves or maybe think of a situation I've had like that, or how I would be acting that situation.

John Ball [00:37:53]:
They're starting to picture what that situation would look like in their mind's eye. And so that way, there's like, they're playing it almost like a film. They're starting to see the story for themselves. So it has to flow and it has to make sense, and it has to remove any extraneous detail. It needs to be told in mostly in the present tense. You might flashback to past tense at some points, but as the story. Tell the story as it's happening, so that it's an experience that they have right now with you. But one thing I say, it should have some emotional impact.

John Ball [00:38:27]:
And you need to decide what you want that to be. And I generally take the attitude of. Of I want people to. I don't necessarily always need them to be laughing when I tell a story. I'm probably going to put humor into it because that's my style of doing things. But sometimes I'll put humor into it to make a bigger impact for something more dramatic or something a bit more emotional. And because it will do that, the contrast will increase, increase the impact. But I don't want to be telling.

John Ball [00:38:58]:
I don't want my audience in tears. I don't want my audience crying all the time and telling that sad story. Because I have to go into the emotional state myself to help pull them into it, to lead them into it. And this is something, I think important, understand, not just in storytelling, but in presenting in general. Your emotional state will be leading, directing the audience as to where to go. And they'll be leading them into something good or something maybe not so good. You should be aware of what that is. Sometimes there's benefit or value in taking some audiences into something that is a little sadder.

John Ball [00:39:35]:
But if you're trying to elicit tears, if you're trying to have your audience crying, I feel that that's really on the manipulation side of things. And it's like, well, why? Why do you want them doing that? I do think you're far better off to be putting out positive stories. Good feeling in general, but fit that into the purpose of your talk. Talk. So, yeah, I do think we should steer clear of emotional manipulation, but we should encourage an emotional journey and interaction with the talk, with the story. Yeah.

Tim Newman [00:40:08]:
And again, I think you really nailed it in that you have to put yourself in that emotional state as you're telling the story, for it to come across the way you actually want to come across as authentic.

John Ball [00:40:21]:
Okay.

Tim Newman [00:40:22]:
Because we want them side by side with us through that, through that journey of the story. And you know, I'm. What I'm. One of the things that I am personally working on right now is developing more stories. And what I'm working on my coach has, has me A lot of times I get into details like you say, killing the Darwin's. I hate doing that because to me that's the, those are the, that's the gold for me. Right. Not necessarily, may not necessarily be the point.

Tim Newman [00:40:52]:
Point that I'm trying to convey, but it's those other pieces that are gold for me. And so he's helping me get from a five or six minute story down to three minutes, you know, get, get in, get to the point, whatever it is and then move on to, to the next piece. Because you don't want people to lose. You don't want to get lost in that story. You know, people, people will shut out. And, and I'm like you. I. There's doesn't matter what I'm talking about.

Tim Newman [00:41:20]:
There's going to be some humor in it even. And I, I'm not a big, like I'm not a big fan of the emotion of the, of the sad emotion because that's not why, I don't think that's why people want, want to hear. Because there's enough sadness everywhere. They, when, when you're on stage or you know, you're, you're leading the meeting or whatever, there's enough sadness and, and, and decrepitness everywhere else. Let's, let's, let's lift them up. Even if it's an emotional point, we can still have some levity to it.

John Ball [00:41:54]:
It's generally better to do that. I find myself saying a lot in interviews at the moment. But Shakespeare understood very well that it was important to put comic relief in the middle of a tragedy. We have to break up that emotion. There's only so much you can take the full tragedy all the way through with no emotional break or change is too much for people, people to handle that they will lose interest. It's very similar in a talk as well. Like I do know speakers who have a very sad story to tell. That's part of what they get booked for, for, for speaking.

John Ball [00:42:23]:
But they will lighten aspects and they don't go into the, they go into misery themselves and they might be talking about their own Resilience. And they'll be talking about things they've gone through that might be kind of horrific or sad sometimes, but you generally will never come away from most of those speakers feeling. Feeling bad or feeling negative about it. You only feel, wow, they went through something amazing and they. Something horrific, but they came through it with. With lessons, with. With grace, with. And they have carried on.

John Ball [00:42:53]:
They've made change, they've maybe even made national change by becoming activists for improving something that affected them. Or it's like there's all sorts of potential for good things to come out of the bad, but they should be, if it's just bad and it's getting people feeling worse and worse.

Tim Newman [00:43:11]:
Exactly.

John Ball [00:43:12]:
Yeah. I don't think we're going to a good place with our audiences. Yeah, definitely. I want my audiences to leave with a smile. There's enough. There's enough stuff going on in their lives that isn't good or happy without adding to it.

Tim Newman [00:43:26]:
Exactly, exactly. So if someone listen, wanting to improve their communication, like, as soon as they get done listening to us, what would be the one thing you challenge them to.

John Ball [00:43:35]:
To start working on, to. To improve their communication? Stage time.

Tim Newman [00:43:42]:
Yeah.

John Ball [00:43:42]:
Get up there and do it. There's the nothing you can beat. No amount of learning, no amount of communication videos, you know, as much as they can be. I'm not saying they're not good. I put loads of them out myself. And there's lots of good people out there who do. They will help, help, but nothing will make as much of a difference for you as getting up on a stage or getting up in front of people and just doing it, doing what you need to do to improve your communication. So, you know, a Toastmasters Club or some other speaking organization or doing an open mic night or whatever, whatever it is for you, but just getting up and doing it will be your biggest path to growth.

John Ball [00:44:21]:
And then you can apply the things that you learn in the videos rather than just filling your head with all this knowledge that you still haven't actually gone and put into practice. Yeah.

Tim Newman [00:44:34]:
And again, I love that you say that nothing ever happened if people didn't. Don't do anything. So you can think about it all you want, but until you start doing it, you haven't actually developed the skill.

John Ball [00:44:47]:
Yeah. The Sifi poet Rumi says something along the lines of like the moon and stars turning in your head. I was like, well, you know, the life of the universe can be going on inside your mind, but you must put stuff out into the world. We must take action. If we want to see things change. It's like it's not enough to know it or to think about it. We have to do it. We have to move our feet and take action.

Tim Newman [00:45:11]:
Exactly. Well, John, thank you so much for joining us. Where's the best place that people can connect with you?

John Ball [00:45:18]:
My website, presentinfluence.com is the best place to come and get with me. You'll find there's a quiz there for your charisma. You can see how good your charisma score is. You can check out my podcast episodes. You can see what programs I offer. And all the other good stuff about me is all of the website presentinfluence.com.

Tim Newman [00:45:37]:
And I'll put those links in the show notes for everybody. But John, thank you so much for spending some time with us today. I really do appreciate it and I love the whole idea of levity and adding humor to everything that we do.

John Ball [00:45:52]:
So thank you. It's been a pleasure. Thanks, Tim.

Tim Newman [00:45:55]:
Be sure to visit speakingwithconfidencepodcast.com to get your free eBook, Top 21 Challenges for Public Speakers and How to Overcome Them. You can also register for the Formula for Public Speaking course. Always remember, your voice has the power to change your world. We'll talk to you next time.