Why Interaction Is the Secret Weapon for Powerful Public Speaking and Teaching with Ivan Wanis-Ruiz

Tim Newman [00:00:10]:
Welcome back to Speaking with Confidence Podcast that helps you build the soft skills that lead to real results. Communication, storytelling, public speaking, and showing up with confidence in every conversation that counts. I'm Tim Newman, a recovering college professor turned communication coach, and I'm thrilled to guide you on your journey to becoming a powerful communicator. Today's guest is Ivan Juanes Ruiz. Ivan is trying to get rid of the world of boring. So we're not doing any boring intros. Yvonne. Welcome to Speaking with Confidence, buddy.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:00:39]:
Tim, it is so, so, so happy to be here, my friend. And it just made me laugh. I love it. Yeah, no intros. Because it's one of the things I talk about is.

Tim Newman [00:00:47]:
Yeah.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:00:47]:
You know, doing intros, no one really cares. They don't care who you are afterward, you know?

Tim Newman [00:00:52]:
Exactly. But before we really get into it, you do something that is intriguing to me.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:00:58]:
Okay. Okay.

Tim Newman [00:01:00]:
You're a salsa dancer. You're a professional salsa dancer, and.

Tim Newman [00:01:05]:
That'S not me at all. Tell me how that happened and what that's like and give us some detail on that, bud.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:01:12]:
Well, you know, it's funny. I'll tell you all about it. And one of the interesting things is I ended up using teaching dancing as a testing ground for ideas on communication and education and learning. So what happened was. And by the way, you know what the funny thing is? We're talking about intros. Every time I do a conference, I'm speaking, doing a keynote or whatever, they're like, yvonne, is this and this, and here's all my accolades and da, da, da, da, da. Dead silence. Then he's like.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:01:38]:
And when he's not doing that, he's a professional salsa dancer. And everyone's like, ooh. The only thing people react to. So what ended up happening was I basically, I got this sales gig in a rural area, and I'm a city boy through and through, and I had disposable income. I was out of unit, freshly out of university, but no friends. I'd never lived in this place before. I was super bored. So I just started taking dance classes as a way to, like, do something in my evenings.

Tim Newman [00:02:07]:
Okay.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:02:07]:
And very quickly, I got really into partner dancing because it was like, honestly just a way to meet girls. Then. The ironic part is the irony of it is I got so into dancing that I had no time for meeting women. There you go. And I still remember, you know, to this day, I'll be dancing because I go to, like, social dancing all the time, and someone will try and have a conversation, and in My head. I'm like, yo, man, I'm just here to dance. Like, I don't want to do all this.

Tim Newman [00:02:34]:
I talk for a living. I just want to be here and have a good time.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:02:37]:
I just want to dance, baby. I just want to dance. So. And the funny part was, you know, maybe for about 15 years I've been teaching dancing. I used to do it as a full time job. Now it's more just like my fun little side gig. I do it once a week, you know.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:02:53]:
And how often I would have an idea about how can I make this more interactive, how can I make this more engaging. Whatever ideas I had while I'm teaching dancing tomorrow night, let's try it out. But instead of talking about, you know, like some new pipeline or reviewing financial statements, I'd be talking about, you know, the sidestep or where to put your weight or how to do this spin. But I was doing the same things in those salsa classes as I was doing in my training workshops.

Tim Newman [00:03:23]:
Okay.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:03:24]:
So that when I came into the training workshop, I had already practiced how to do it right. Yeah. And it ended up being this, this amazing testing ground that to this day I think about, you know, hm, how could I do this in a dance class? Oh, maybe like this.

Tim Newman [00:03:37]:
That.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:03:38]:
That's how I'm going to do it in the boardroom tomorrow.

Tim Newman [00:03:39]:
Yeah.

Tim Newman [00:03:42]:
And I'm glad you kind of went down that route. I. I didn't, I didn't expect that. But I'm glad that you did because there, there's something that you and I really have in common and, and that is we love to teach.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:03:54]:
I thought you were going to say we're both 10 out of 10 good looking.

Tim Newman [00:03:56]:
Well, we know that's not true. We, we. I'm like a 99. I'm almost there. You know, I told you I got the voice for radio and a face for public. I mean voice radio and a face for silent movies. You know, I can't have this, this pretty mug on camera all the time.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:04:13]:
But, you know, no, man, it's distracting.

Tim Newman [00:04:16]:
It is. But we love teaching, right? That's what we do.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:04:19]:
Love it.

Tim Newman [00:04:21]:
That's where we shine.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:04:23]:
So. Actually, you know what, Tim, before you go on, can I just. You. I haven't. I'm going to be real with you. Just a moment of honesty here is for the last year and a half, two years, I've been so busy doing speaking that I have actually stopped teaching dancing. And man, do I miss it. Yeah, I love teaching, I love doing workshops.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:04:41]:
But there is A part of my soul that loves to just teach for the fun of teaching. And it's something I just can't stop doing. And when you said that, it made me think of, like, man, I actually really miss teaching dancing. I need to get back into it because it was just. Even making. It's no money. It's just pure, like, just a need. I just have to do it, you know?

Tim Newman [00:05:00]:
It feeds the soul.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:05:02]:
Yeah, it really does. It really does. It. I. And. And it sounds a little cheesy to say, you know, but I think about it all the time last year, so I'm like, man, I just want to get in front of a group of people and show them how to do, like, an inside turn.

Tim Newman [00:05:17]:
Hey, whatever it is, man, that's. That's the. That's the key, though, right? I mean, because if. And I just think back to, you know, a few years ago when I was so engrossed in work that there was no fun. I was. I was teaching and I enjoyed it, and it's great. But I mean, it was just. There was that something missing.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:05:37]:
Yeah.

Tim Newman [00:05:38]:
And so, you know, you've got to do those things that uplift you, that feed your soul, that really get you going. That's outside of our normal everyday work life. Work life, Right. And, yeah, that's what it is. That. That's what keeps us fresh, that's what keeps us sharp. That's what keeps us strong and moving towards our why. Whatever.

Tim Newman [00:05:58]:
That why is for. For each of us in whatever it is that we do.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:06:02]:
Yeah. You know, what else is. Is like, that for me is, you know, as you saw, we talked about this offline is I MC Events.

Tim Newman [00:06:09]:
Yes.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:06:09]:
So I'm that guy that, when you come into the stadium is like, ladies and gentlemen, please rise for the national anthem. Like, I do that kind of stuff. And there's. Again, there's not a lot of money in hosting and emceeing, but, man, do I spend so much time trying to find gigs to host an emcee. So if anybody's listening and you need an emcee, let me know, because it's just another one of these things that feeds my soul. I don't know what it is. When I'm at an event or a concert, I see a stage, I see someone doing an introduction, and I have to, like, stop myself. I can't enjoy it because I'm like, you are doing a discredit to who you're introducing right now.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:06:43]:
Yeah. Oh, you're doing a discredit to the crowd, right? Now I could, I've actually done it where I've gone up to be like, I'm just, just wondering.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:06:51]:
Just like imagine you're at a concert sometimes. Excuse me, can I get on the mic real quick? You can imagine their responses, but I just can't help myself because it feeds me. And I love getting on stage. I love getting a crowd hyped. I love that, that, that idea of like, you know, making people so excited. And here's one of the things I always say. Most people will host an event and the way. And they'll ask people to be excited.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:07:15]:
Make some noise. Come on, you can do better than that. Make some noise. And it's always forced and contrived. Instead, give them a reason. Yeah, and I love doing things like that. I love getting, you know, I'll go into the audience and I'll jump into the audience. I'll get someone on stage and get them to do something.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:07:32]:
People will lose their minds, but that's the fun.

Tim Newman [00:07:36]:
Exactly. And we're going to get into all those types of things about engagement and yes, the things that we're doing wrong. But before we get into things we're doing wrong, what do we. From an education perspective, and this is going to be a short list, but what are we doing right in terms of teaching people communication skills? Because we, we are doing some things right. It's not a lot, but we are doing some. What are we doing right?

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:08:01]:
Well, let me, let me give you, I'm going to give you my opinion and then, Tim, I'd love to hear like what your experience was, because first thing you said in education, I just thought about a friend of mine who finished a master's degree and she showed me some of the presentations her teacher did. And I was like, this guy should be fire. I don't care what his education is. I don't care how knowledgeable he is in this subject. She's like, yeah, I don't remember anything from the course. And so many people say like, yeah, I don't remember anything from it. And.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:08:24]:
It viscerally upsets me. Like I ended up going on a huge rant and I was like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. I'm sweating because I got so upset. I've never met this person. I just saw this slide deck and instantly was angry because I get so. I take it so personally. Here's what I think some people are doing right. There are certain educators, Sugar, Mitra, for example.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:08:43]:
And we can talk about Sugar. He's, he had probably the Most popular TED Talk of all time. And he's been a big advocate for teaching in an entirely new way. And there are certain people that are doing teaching in this new way, but it's hard to break out of old paradigms.

Tim Newman [00:08:58]:
Yes.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:08:59]:
The truth is that if you are doing a class teaching communication, you have to do what you're teaching. So I have. There are some teachers that are saying, okay, instead of, you know, we're going to do this 12 month course and you're going to speak at the end of the 12 months. You're speaking in every single class? Yes, every single class. Everyone is speaking.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:09:23]:
There's teachers out there, some of them, and I've worked with a few of them. And I'm always surprised when this happens when they do all, when they say, like, hey, the students are going to do all the talking. I'm teaching public speaking. I'm going to Talk for like 20 minutes and then they're going to like work for the next three hours. That's stuff that is going well. Yeah. And we just need to do more of that.

Tim Newman [00:09:43]:
The only way to get better at doing something is do it.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:09:45]:
Yeah. You can't learn. I always joke, listen, you can't learn how to change like an alternator by watching YouTube videos. Right. I tried and I had to call a tow truck. You know what I mean? You just, it's like you can't. It's not the same. It's never the same.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:09:59]:
What do you think is going well, Tim? Like, what do you think? You left academia and you make the joke. You're a recovering professor because of the frustration you probably experience. You know, the, the. So what do you think they're doing right?

Tim Newman [00:10:10]:
Well, I, not, not much, but it's, it's the whole idea that they've acknowledged that this is important.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:10:21]:
Yeah.

Tim Newman [00:10:21]:
We don't know, we don't know how to solve it yet. But we've acknowledged that it's so important that our students get this. And you know, I think that.

Tim Newman [00:10:33]:
I don't think that we've. And this isn't the right part. We haven't figured out how to, how to do it right yet. Because again, it's breaking out of the old paradigm, Right?

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:10:42]:
Yes.

Tim Newman [00:10:43]:
It's the solution. I can tell you what the solution is not. The solution is not 1:3 credit 100 level communications course. That is not the solution.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:10:54]:
No.

Tim Newman [00:10:55]:
And every institution in the United States, it's probably this way. In Canada, it's a requirement that you take a human. Communication. Speech, communication, whatever they want to call it 100 level. You take it your first semester, your freshman year, and that's that.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:11:10]:
And it's a BS class that everyone thinks about. It's just a BS class. Oh, so I'm going to talk about like my favorite color or some BS like that? Yeah, absolutely. Can I. Oh, sorry, go ahead and I'll jump in.

Tim Newman [00:11:22]:
Well, what I, what I did, and.

Tim Newman [00:11:26]:
Maybe it's not right. Maybe it is. I, I don't know is I forced my students to go out and actually talk to professionals. Go out? We're not sit, we're not sitting in the class every day. You're going to go out and you're going to introduce yourself and network with, with a professional and actually have conversations with it with them and then you're going to come back and report on it and give presentations on it.

Tim Newman [00:11:50]:
That the reason for that was twofold. Right. Number one, to network, it's more than twofold, but it's one step, step, step.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:11:59]:
You're a talker, not a mathematician.

Tim Newman [00:12:00]:
2 step, step, step, step, step. Right. And when you're networking, you're practicing research skills on, on researching who you're going to talk to. You're practicing actually talking to them, having, having an adult professional conversation.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:12:14]:
Yeah, right.

Tim Newman [00:12:15]:
And then you're practicing coming back and synthesizing that information, putting it into a, some form of presentation, speech, discussion type format, and then sharing that information and being able to discuss it, you know, so we're combining a number of different levels here and the only way that works is if you're open to going out and talking to those people.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:12:42]:
That's interesting. That's a very cool. Making it more practical by getting people to go out and do it in the real world, I think is a fantastic idea. One other thing that I'll comment on is that gives me hope. I work with about five or six universities across North America and those are at every one of those universities and it's usually at the MBA level, but at any master's level, I work a couple of engineers and stuff too. They have always kind of recognized that this is something that both students are lacking and they don't have the right skill set for. And you know, hey, yay to me, that's why they call me. And so, for example, you know, I take, I take hope in the fact that, you know, between from University of Texas to the University of Australia to the University of Toronto and anything in between, there's a lot of places that, that are saying, Yvonne, what's it going to take for us to teach these people better communication skills.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:13:33]:
Because. And Tim, this is one of the things I always talk about. And I was just. Literally today I was working, I was doing a session for a mortgage company, and I asked them this question. I said, listen, what are you going to tell me that I can't find out for myself in, like a minute? In a Google search? Right. Also, do you think AI is going to automate more or less of your job in 10 years? And it's more.

Tim Newman [00:13:57]:
It's more.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:13:58]:
So if your knowledge is no longer valuable and your technical expertise is no longer valuable.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:14:09]:
Why you? What do you actually bring to the table? And I posit that the competitive advantage of the future is not knowledge or technical expertise. It's going to be in the way you communicate and deliver that knowledge and expertise. In other words, it's going to be your communication skills. Because.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:14:31]:
As much as we might like to pretend, at the end of the day, we are social creatures. We follow leaders. We listen to people. We decide whether or not to trust someone. So if you have the ability, you know, think about. And I always talk about this, Tim. Think about people. Forget like CEOs, forget all those people.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:14:47]:
Forget like politicians. Nobody cares about that. Let's talk about really persuasive people. Let's talk about the Macho Man, Randy Savage.

Tim Newman [00:14:56]:
I love this. Go.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:14:56]:
Yeah, go. Let's talk about, like, cult leaders. Who is more persuasive? Cult leaders. Think about. Let's talk about Bernie. What's his name? Oh, gosh, now I'm blanking. The Bernie Madoff.

Tim Newman [00:15:08]:
Bernie Madoff. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:15:10]:
The Ponzi scheme.

Tim Newman [00:15:11]:
Ponzi scheme guy.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:15:13]:
Those are persuasive people. Let's learn from them. Because think about this. Bernie Madoff took a bunch of people who are good at making money and convinced them that he was better at it, even though he had none. Right, Right. A cult leader makes you give up everything you own based on nothing.

Tim Newman [00:15:33]:
Yes.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:15:33]:
A professional wrestler. Forget about, like, some person is like, come on, everybody, CEO, let's get hyped. All these, like, forced applauses during an Apple keynote, right? No, diss. Apple. You guys are okay with your speaking? Call me for all the Apple employees listening. I know the thousands of you. Just call me. Trust me, I can help.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:15:50]:
But, like, think about a professional wrestler, how they get people absolutely nuts.

Tim Newman [00:15:55]:
Nuts. Yes.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:15:56]:
And what are they? A man, a woman with a microphone in a stage and nothing else. Yep.

Tim Newman [00:16:04]:
And everybody knows it's fake. Everybody. Everybody already knows.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:16:09]:
But you can't help but fall in Love with the energy of certain people. And here's the thing. It's not just about energy, or we can use the term energy to describe logical processes that they're actually doing to elicit emotional responses. Right. And by emotion, I don't mean happy or sadness. I mean adrenaline. Adrenaline, because that induces emotional. I mean, dopamine release.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:16:31]:
And we can actually identify what they're doing and translate it into physical tactics. And that's kind of, you know, that's where my niche is. That's why I get all worked up when I talk about these things. Because once you realize this, you're like, oh, my gosh. And then you start seeing it everywhere, and then you start figuring out how you could start your own cult.

Tim Newman [00:16:49]:
Exactly. That's what I need. The Tim call.

Tim Newman [00:16:53]:
So let me follow up on something you just said. You said the emotional reaction, right?

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:16:58]:
Yeah.

Tim Newman [00:16:59]:
And I was having this conversation literally two hours ago. Okay. And we were talking about, I'm working. I'm just working on telling stories. Right. I'm just, you know, because that's what we do. And.

Tim Newman [00:17:15]:
My wife was with me, and we were talking about. She says, well, you're not getting deep enough. I said, well, first off, here's the thing. You have to understand, number one, I think there's way too many deep, emotional, dark stories. That's not who I am. You know, that's not who I am.

Tim Newman [00:17:34]:
I'm happy. We're going to joke, we're going to have fun.

Tim Newman [00:17:38]:
Learn from the mistakes, stories, the funny things that we do that lead us to say, looking back and say, wow, that's what I really did. Don't do that again type of things. And so when we talk about emotion, why do we go to the sad trauma emotion as opposed to the happy, let's have some fun, learn from that emotion.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:18:03]:
Yeah. You know, there's. There's a couple things I want to say about that, and you make a couple of really interesting points, Tim, is that people feel like unless you cry at the end of the story, it's not a good story. And it's like, it's always got to be about trauma and emotion. And because I feel like people use that as the only source they can when they think about something that is emotional. We always think about drama and crying. That's what we think of as emotional. Right.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:18:30]:
We don't think emotional as, like. Like what a standup comic does, but that is very.

Tim Newman [00:18:35]:
That is emotional.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:18:36]:
Right? Yeah. And so there is a societal kind of influence that, like, oh, this is emotional. But there's another aspect of storytelling that I want to touch on real quick. Have you ever heard of the Moth?

Tim Newman [00:18:47]:
The Moth? No.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:18:47]:
The Moth for all the listening audience. And, Tim, you might really enjoy this, too. The Moth is a storytelling slam SL competition. Okay? So every. So you can find it. It's a podcast. You can find it on YouTube. It's, it's.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:19:00]:
It's. There's chapters of it everywhere. So I went to a Moth in Miami, for example, and you go there, and there's a theme. That night that I went. The theme was chemistry. And you put your name into a hat and they call your names out. And if they call your name, you get up and you have to speak for you tell a story for five minutes about the theme. And using the theme is one of the ways they make sure that they're not always.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:19:24]:
People aren't just going to come up and like, so here's the time that I was abused, you know, because that can get a little much, you know?

Tim Newman [00:19:29]:
Right, right, right.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:19:31]:
The other interesting thing is when you study really good storytellers, what a really good story does is it doesn't make you happy or sad. It does three things. One, it's an emotional roller coaster. It makes you feel several things.

Tim Newman [00:19:46]:
Yes. Up, down. Up, down.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:19:47]:
Up, down, up, down. Two, and this is probably the biggest one. Okay. This is. And this is how the difference between good and bad improv as well. Many people focus the story on what they did to overcome a problem.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:20:04]:
But what makes a story really good is the problem, not the solution.

Tim Newman [00:20:09]:
Not the solution.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:20:10]:
In fact, a story that the really good storytellers. The problem is 90%. Stephen King is problem, problem, problem, problem, problem, problem, problem. Solutions are honestly the end of his books. I'm always a little disappointed because he's so good at building the problem and causing problems. The Lord of the Rings is just a series of problems. They get this, but now there's this problem. They get this, and now there's this problem and building up problems.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:20:32]:
And the last thing that, for me, that a story has that is interesting, that makes it kind.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:20:39]:
Is uncertainty.

Tim Newman [00:20:41]:
Yes.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:20:41]:
Because many of the times you kind of know where a story's going. So you need to have the uncertainty. And I'll give you. Can I give you two?

Tim Newman [00:20:49]:
Yes, please.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:20:49]:
Two fancy words. Two fancy words that you've probably never heard of, but you use all the time.

Tim Newman [00:20:56]:
Do it.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:20:57]:
Okay. A tricolon.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:21:03]:
Tricolon just means a phrase with three things in it.

Tim Newman [00:21:06]:
Okay.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:21:07]:
Okay. You heard of the rule of three, however?

Tim Newman [00:21:09]:
Yeah. Yep.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:21:10]:
But you can use a tricolon in storytelling to create uncertainty, to create humor. And let me give you a quick example. Okay. So a tricolon is when something, comma, something comma, something.

Tim Newman [00:21:23]:
Right.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:21:25]:
The reason it's so effective is a tricolon. The first two parts establish a pattern. The third thing confirms the pattern. Right, right. So the way you can use a tricolon in a story to create uncertainty and also to have, like, some fun is you set up the two things with a pattern, and the third one is not part of the pattern, because the audience, you're taking them on a journey, and then you're throwing them a curveball. It's like, there's things. Three things you need in life. Food, water.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:21:55]:
And now you're. If I hadn't said anything, you're. You're expecting something like, in love. Right. But instead of, like, food, water, and the White Lotus TV show, season four, that's all you need in life, you know, and you throw them a little curveball and that they're like, ah. And if you can do those three things in a story, boom, then you got something.

Tim Newman [00:22:15]:
You got it. Yeah, yeah. And it's those types of things that you don't necessarily have to be on stage to do.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:22:25]:
No, we all tell stories and conversations. That's why everyone wants a quote, unquote, conversational style. Yeah, yeah.

Tim Newman [00:22:31]:
When you go to a job interview, when you're, you know, when you're in front of a team meeting, giving a report, I mean, it doesn't really matter. And, you know, part of the issue that I think we. We really struggle with as a society is we don't know how to talk to people. We're not. I'm not even talking about being on stage. Right, right. We don't know how to. How to take something like that and have a conversation with somebody.

Tim Newman [00:22:54]:
That's a. That's the real problem.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:22:57]:
I think the idea that what you mentioned is, you know, one of the problems in society is being able to, like, get people to open up and to have sincere conversations.

Tim Newman [00:23:03]:
Yeah.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:23:03]:
I want to. Can we touch on that for a minute?

Tim Newman [00:23:05]:
Yeah, please.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:23:06]:
Because I want to give your audience for, you know, the millions around the world, I want to give you something right now. Okay.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:23:13]:
This happens to me all the time. I actually did it today in a session. One of the ways we've been told to start conversations to show interest is to ask lots of questions. Yes. The problem with that is, is that it's only half the story. And if I only ask you questions, it becomes an interrogation.

Tim Newman [00:23:31]:
Interrogation, yes.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:23:32]:
So, for example, you've all done this. You know, you're at a networking event, so what do you do? Where are you from? You have any kids? You have any family? And the more of those questions you ask, the less someone wants to ask it. Sorry, the less someone wants to answer it. Answer it and I'll give you another reading. A good example. If you've ever been in a taxi or an Uber or something like that, and the person just starts asking you a bunch of questions, you're like, yo, you don't know me. Like that. Like, where are you headed? Oh, where are you going? Where are you coming from? You're like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:24:01]:
Right, right. Why? It's because it's one way. And in fact, when I was researching communication, one of the places I kind of researched was police interrogation. And I spoke to a couple of interview experts and I said, what's the difference between what you see on TV and what happens in the real world? And this is a fundamental truth. And I get resistance on it all the time because there's cognitive dissonance between what people want and what people do. They said.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:24:31]:
The biggest difference is on tv, the cop is always asking a bunch of questions. But the more questions you ask someone, the less they want to answer them, because it's one way. And they'll give you these one word answers or very general answers because they don't really want to say. In the real world, we do a lot of talking. At the beginning, we talk about all the things we know because the more we talk, the more someone wants to jump in, the more we reveal, the more likely they are to give us more information when we ask a question. Right. And here's the cognitive dissonance. I tell people that if you want to start a conversation with someone before you ask any question, you have to reveal some information first.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:25:13]:
And people are like, oh, no, people don't want to hear about me. I'm like, yes, they do. That's why you're asking them questions.

Tim Newman [00:25:18]:
Right?

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:25:18]:
But they're not going to answer if it's only one way. Right? So here's. Can I give you a strategy, Tim?

Tim Newman [00:25:23]:
Yes.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:25:23]:
And I literally did this today. And it was really funny because I don't tell them, I don't tell people. I do this in my workshop. I just do it. Conversations happen, I teach them. I always get a question like, you really think that works? I'm like, what do you think happened when you walked in and there's this like crazy silence. And it's something you did naturally when we first met and I did it, I, I kind of. Yes.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:25:43]:
Stand it. And that's why for the listening audience, the Tim and I were met for like a 15 minute conversation that turned into like almost an hour because, because we were just, we just kept finding more and more things in common and the connection was just there. And it's partially because, you know, you're a charming guy, you know how to communicate, but it was also because we use these subtle tactics. So here's the tactic. You know what? When you go up to someone, say, hey, how you doing? If you just say, I'm fine, how are you? They're going to say, I'm fine. And you'll have nothing to talk about.

Tim Newman [00:26:12]:
Exactly.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:26:13]:
So you always defer like, hey, it's hot outside. Hey, it's cold outside. Hey, so what are you doing? You're like, get me out. Get me out right now. I'm done. I'm done. Get me out.

Tim Newman [00:26:19]:
I'm already bored.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:26:20]:
I'm already bored. Give me out.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:26:23]:
Instead. I always throw out something that I've just done or I'm looking forward to doing today. For example, the first two people that walked into the training session I was doing, I've never met any of these people there. It's totally. I'm working at this company, they've never met me. I don't know them. First person walked in, it's like, how are you doing? It's like, well, I'm loving this bubbly that they gave me to drink. And they're like, oh, you like sparkling water? I said, yes.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:26:48]:
That turned into like a 10 minute conversation about vanilla ice cream, chocolate chips eating. And as more people came in, they're like, we just. The conversation kept flowing simply because I revealed something, right? And I'll give everyone an experiment. Here's my experiment for everyone, okay? If you ever meet someone, the one, one thing people don't really like answering is, where do you live? So what part of town you live in? Like, if I don't know you, like, you. Especially nowadays, we think everyone is crazy, right? We're, we're.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:27:17]:
As a society, like when I was a kid, my parents would let me walk like four blocks away, go to school. Like, no one does this anymore, you know, I took, I used to take the bus across town through like one of the ghettos in the city I grew up in. And I was like, I was in grade eight. No, grade seven. No. One, I'm 12 years old. You don't, you never see a 12 year old alone anyway. No side tangent.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:27:39]:
If you just say, so what part of town you live in, you're going to get like these sides. Like no one wants to really tell you. Right. So what I do is I always tell people what part of town I live in and then it's just like the easiest thing in the world for them to answer. So, for example, I'm in Toronto right now and if I, and I, and I've done, I've done this, everyone do this, say, I live in the annex. How about you? People are just, oh, I live over there. That's not too like. And they'll just start telling me everything about where they live just because I reveal something first.

Tim Newman [00:28:07]:
I do say I do the exact same thing. Do the exact same thing. I, I'm a full time RVer. I, I live in, in the RV park right down there by Sea Pines. They say, oh, really? And, and off we go.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:28:20]:
Then right away they'll tell you about, oh, I live over here, I've been there. And Yep. And it's the, it's, and this is the thing, really.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:28:32]:
Good communication. Like this tactic, for example, it's transparent.

Tim Newman [00:28:36]:
Yes.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:28:37]:
You don't even know it's happening. You just see the impact of it. And the only way that happens, I always say it's sort of like kissing. Tim, have you ever kissed anybody?

Tim Newman [00:28:49]:
Oh, absolutely.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:28:50]:
Okay. Yeah.

Tim Newman [00:28:52]:
My hand earlier.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:28:55]:
So you think back to when you first kiss someone when you're a little kid, you're like a teenager and you kiss for the first time and it's kind of like uncomfortable and awkward and you don't really know what to do. And like, is this it? You don't know, but the more you, you do it, I've heard, the better it gets.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:29:12]:
This little strategy, I'll take your word for it. Yeah, I'll take your word for it.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:29:17]:
This strategy is the same thing. The first few times I did it, it was a little weird. It seemed a little force. I do it now all the time. No one even knows. And I just connect with people super fast.

Tim Newman [00:29:27]:
Let me add something to that.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:29:28]:
Sure.

Tim Newman [00:29:30]:
And I can hear my listeners right now and they're saying, some of them are saying, well, that works for you because you're outgoing. Yvonne, you don't know this, but I'm a raving, raving introvert.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:29:47]:
Okay.

Tim Newman [00:29:48]:
But guess what?

Tim Newman [00:29:51]:
You can still do that.

Tim Newman [00:29:54]:
If you're an introvert. You can still be, you can still have these Types of conversations, right. You don't have to sit on the, on the wall. You may not have as many of those conversations. You may have to do some things leading into those conversations, but don't think that you can't learn to do those same types of things.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:30:15]:
Can I give some advice to the introverts listening, please. Number one, suppose you use this strategy and you're terribly shy. You don't know what to say. I'm the shy person. I'm talking to Tim, and I know I'm introverted, but I'm going to try the strategy. It's going to be obvious that I don't know, I'm not a good talker. But now I've given Tim something to talk about that I have interest in potentially or to ask me questions about. So now I can.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:30:39]:
I don't, I don't have to worry. I can just respond. So, for example, if I'm super shy and you say, yvonne, how you doing? And I say, good, I'm going out for dinner with my friends after this. How about you?

Tim Newman [00:30:48]:
I'm doing great.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:30:49]:
Now you can ask me questions. You can tell me where.

Tim Newman [00:30:52]:
I'm going to say, where are you going? First I'm going to say, oh, where are you going? Have you been to this place? Have you been to that place?

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:30:57]:
Yeah. And if you can see that I'm nervous, at least now you have a launching board to start to talk, Right? So you. Okay, you can be like, okay, this guy looks like he's very shy, very timid. I'm going to talk, I'm going to talk. I'm going to ask a couple of questions. But it gives us a direction.

Tim Newman [00:31:11]:
Absolutely.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:31:12]:
Here's another. But let me give you some advice because, yes, Yvonne, that's great, Tim, that's great. Still, I don't feel comfortable doing it. Fine. We're wrong. You're right. What else can we do?

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:31:24]:
If you understand or you recognize that communication is important, but you are an introvert, you don't know how to do it and you're very shy. You have social anxiety.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:31:36]:
Do not go to networking events, volunteer at them. There you go.

Tim Newman [00:31:42]:
That's a good one.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:31:43]:
I developed a lot of my kind of interpersonal skills by working the coat check. When I was in university at various events, I joined all these clubs. I had no interest in any of these clubs. I just needed to go out. And whenever they said, do you want to just attend? I'm like, no. Can I do the registration? Can I, Can I do the co check? Do you need someone to run the bar. Why? Because it allowed me to have a role which brought people to me. But then when I reach my social kind of limit, I could hide behind my role.

Tim Newman [00:32:13]:
Right?

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:32:16]:
Yeah. And it let me meet way more people than everyone else would at a networking event just by volunteering at him or by attending than just by attending.

Tim Newman [00:32:26]:
I heard another one very similar to that recently, and what the person said was they got there early and they stood by the door like they worked there and just. Hi, I'm.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:32:38]:
Was that me? Did we talk? Because that's. I tell people to do that. That might have been me in our last conversation.

Tim Newman [00:32:43]:
No, it was, it was actually at a conference. And I. Yeah, it's a great strategy. And so, so you know, and you, you already know who you want to talk to there, but you, You. You shake hands and you see everybody. Hi. And they see you, and then they come back later, hey, I know you from somewhere or this. And they.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:32:58]:
That's a great idea.

Tim Newman [00:33:00]:
You know, it's.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:33:01]:
It, it.

Tim Newman [00:33:02]:
It's figuring out a way to, to do this in, in your parameters still remember now you still have to add the value to the other person. But you, You, You. You figure out how you, how you can live in that space and, and, and be successful.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:33:20]:
One of the other places that I say that it's always great to stand, that will kind of like just from social awkwardness, will.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:33:27]:
Stand at the end of the buffet, stand at the end of the food, like, you know, where the coffee is, wherever the cream and sugar is, just stand around there and people be like, oh, are you waiting? No, no, go ahead, please. And it'll some. It'll lead to small little conversations. It's another way to dip your toe.

Tim Newman [00:33:40]:
Yeah, but I, I'm not allowed to stand near the dessert area.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:33:45]:
That's why I said the coffee station, my friend. Coffee, no cream, no sugar.

Tim Newman [00:33:48]:
As. See? Then I'll be up all night too. I mean, I, I mean, we're good. I mean, I could. That'd be awesome. You know.

Tim Newman [00:33:59]:
I love this conversation because, you know, we think so much alike and.

Tim Newman [00:34:10]:
We're not doing it the same way.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:34:13]:
Right.

Tim Newman [00:34:14]:
And we're trying to get people to understand, get their face out of their phone.

Tim Newman [00:34:22]:
See what's actually in front of you and actually engage in that. And when we do this.

Tim Newman [00:34:27]:
Going back to one of the first things we talked about, education, whether it's. You're speaking, you're on stage, you're a teacher, what have you. How do you know if somebody's Actually listening. If you're up there doing all the talking.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:34:41]:
Right.

Tim Newman [00:34:42]:
How do you know that whatever message you're trying to.

Tim Newman [00:34:47]:
Impart your. Your wonderful knowledge on, if it's actually getting through?

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:34:51]:
Yeah. I always say, Tim, if you're doing all the talking, how do you know anyone is listening?

Tim Newman [00:34:55]:
Listen.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:34:56]:
Yeah, you know, if you're doing a. That's one of the things that when I. When I do keynotes and I want to, I guess my kind of competitive advantage, my value proposition is I say that and I say, imagine a keynote where the audience is also keynoting.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:35:13]:
Because I'm very interactive, I get people talking. So I brought him up earlier. So to answer this question, I want to talk about the mighty Sugar Mitra, a name you might. No one here has heard of. I invite everyone after you like and comment on this podcast episode. Put all the comments down below to after you do that and like this video and share it with five friends and tell everyone you know about it. After all of that, go on YouTube and find Sugata Mitra's first TED talk from like 2008 or something like that, because his ideas still apply. And this answers your question.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:35:53]:
So here's what Sugata Mitra did. And it's a fascinating, fascinating story, Tim. It's. It just by virtue of the experiments. It's interesting. But also he has a kind of. A very. Kind of calm, very.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:36:06]:
He's got a couple of nice jokes. He's a good speaker, you know. So here's what made him famous in the world of education, because he's like us, and that he is trying to dramatically change the way we perceive learning. It's something that no one wants to do, but it's just so evident. Anyway, he became famous because he put a computer into a wall in a slum in New Delhi. I believe it was New Delhi in a slum where people were illiterate. And he just put a computer in the wall and said, let me see what's going. Let me see what happens.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:36:41]:
And then he recorded it and he showed how within hours, kids started using the computer. These are illiterate kids who do not speak English.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:36:51]:
A few hours later, they're on the Internet. They figured out how the Internet works. A few hours after that, they're teaching other kids how the Internet works. Before you know it, days later, there's huge groups of kids around this one computer and they're typing in English. They're going and finding games online.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:37:09]:
From that, he extrapolated and he did a bunch of experiments in learning and here is how he's identified the most functional form of learning. Number one, you give people an open ended challenge. Okay. Number two, you make them work in groups. Number three, you give them a shared information source. Meaning if there's three of us in a group, there's only one computer. We're not all on our own computers. That's it.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:37:36]:
In every one of my sessions, I am constantly doing a challenge with group work. And then here's my little addition. There's always a deliverable. There's always something they have to do at the end and then no one knows who's going to do it. So let me give you an example. Give me any topic. Give me just any topic you've taught or you've seen taught. You've talked to someone about any topic.

Tim Newman [00:37:58]:
Elevator pitches.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:37:59]:
Sure. So let's say I want to teach everyone elevator pitching. Most people would just say, here's how you do an elevator pitch. Here's the elements of an elevator pitch. Everyone practice your elevator pitch. Here's what I would do. I would. And this is like, I have one technique for elevator pitching and I'll give.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:38:13]:
It's called a log line. It just has three parts. I would teach them the log line. I would give them some examples and I would say this. All right, everyone, you're going to get into a group of three or four, all right? One person can have a phone or a laptop. No one else can. If you want to do, find someone. If you want to cheat, go on AI make examples.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:38:32]:
But only one of you can have a can do it. You have to share your phone. I need you to make a log line.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:38:40]:
You only have two minutes. And when you're done, I'm picking random people to get up in front of everyone and tell us your log line. What have I done? Number one, open ended challenge. Number two, group work. Number three, shared resource. But then here's even more magic. There's two other elements. I don't know if you spotted the.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:39:00]:
Tim, can I put you on the spot? And don't worry if you don't get it, because if I did my job right, they're transparent. You don't really notice them. I did two other things. What do you think they were?

Tim Newman [00:39:09]:
One is you put everybody on notice that you better be prepared because you're going to have to talk about it.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:39:13]:
You'Re gonna have to do it. And. And they don't. That's one of them. Yeah, 100%.

Tim Newman [00:39:17]:
Oh, I don't. Hit me with the other one.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:39:19]:
Yeah, that's okay. That was the important. If you say I'm gonna pick, everyone's gonna pick one person from their group right away. I can chill because I know I'll just nominate the most outgoing person in my group. Right. If we don't know, damn, we all gotta work.

Tim Newman [00:39:31]:
Right.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:39:32]:
But then I always give an unrealistic time constraint. But allocate more time. Two minutes is nowhere near enough time to even write something down. I allocate 10 minutes in my head, but I say, you have two minutes. Go. You know what happens? People do this. We only got two minutes and they hyper.

Tim Newman [00:39:51]:
Let's go.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:39:52]:
Right? Yeah. And then when it's all said and done. Yeah. You see, what we've done is we've created an environment.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:40:00]:
Where a. I've managed to teach, but that was the minority of the time.

Tim Newman [00:40:04]:
Right.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:40:04]:
The rest of the time is them working, problem solving and presenting. And then my job is as they're working, I'm walking around coaching.

Tim Newman [00:40:14]:
Yes.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:40:15]:
Then by getting people to go up in front of everyone and then coaching them, I'm teaching what I normally would lecture. Right. And this is how we have to start working on things. Because again, think about this. People are saying, how do we stop AI in the classroom? You don't, don't. You don't. You don't stop the Internet in the classroom. You work with it.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:40:34]:
I tell people, use AI, I don't care. You only got two minutes. But when you're done, how do you going to coach you through anyway?

Tim Newman [00:40:39]:
Right?

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:40:41]:
And what it does is it makes extremely learn interactive, dynamic learning environments that more importantly, you actually know if people are learning or not because they're doing.

Tim Newman [00:40:51]:
It the whole time they're doing it and you see it and, and, and they're talking and they're talking about it. You see, that's, you know, for, for those that have never been in that type of situation, you actually see the, see them and the discussions and the work and the writing and the questioning within the group.

Tim Newman [00:41:09]:
Will this work or that work? And you actually see that going on. And you as the coach, again, as you're walking around, you can take. If somebody has asked a question, you can say, that's a great question.

Tim Newman [00:41:20]:
Did you think about this? Oh, you really, you nailed that answer. How about from this perspective? And then you can get them to think even on a deeper level from whatever position it is that you've seen them from.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:41:33]:
And the. Another really interesting thing that Sugata talked about in another lecture he did, because I'm a very big fan of this guy Sugata, if you're listening, call me, baby. Return my phone calls. But Sugata talked about, you know, when in the world are you expected to memorize three months worth of information and then verbally regurgitated outside of university? Never. Never, Never. So we're teaching people skills. That has two traps. The first is we're teaching people skills that they won't use in the real world.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:42:02]:
The second, that means that the system is set up to only reward those people who are good at that skill at memorization and regurgitation. He says you should get every SAT exam, every finals exam. You should give kids the Internet. And we shouldn't be asking them any kinds of questions that revolve involve just remembering information. Because just like in the real world, if you don't know the answer, give me two minutes. I'll just look it up. Right?

Tim Newman [00:42:26]:
Right.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:42:27]:
And that I think is. There's so much pushback on that. But I want to give you one little funny anecdote before about this. Right. Because people say if we do that, we're going to ruin the way kids. Like kids won't be able to think anymore.

Tim Newman [00:42:39]:
Well, they're not. Number one, they're not thinking now.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:42:41]:
They're not thinking because we're only. We're not teaching them how to think exactly. We're forcing them to do things they would never do in the real world.

Tim Newman [00:42:48]:
Right.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:42:49]:
That same argument came up when the Internet was first the thing that same argument came up when, like CDs and cassettes. Oh, people are just gonna be able to listen to everything. No one's gonna read. There is a very famous. I read in a book. There's a very famous diatribe that was by Aristotle. And he talked about the death of the human mind because of this newfound book technology. And now no one's going to have to remember anything because they'll just be able to look it up in a book.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:43:22]:
And it's the death of like human thinking. And that's insane. Think about now. But at that time, they, they're. You can see the same argument over and over. They were think. Talking about books. What we think is the epitome of knowledge as something that is like, basically like this is based.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:43:40]:
This is going to give everyone brain rot because now no one's going to memorize anything. They're going to be able to look it up in a book.

Tim Newman [00:43:48]:
It's. It's funny when you think about it, actually, you know, and it. And now we have AI.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:43:57]:
I was just using it in My workshop today, I. I always teach people how to cheat.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:44:04]:
Do you want to hear a cool example of how we. How I do it?

Tim Newman [00:44:06]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:44:07]:
Okay. So, by the way, I forgot to tell you the other thing. Remember I told you the two words that you. You've never heard of before but you use all the time?

Tim Newman [00:44:13]:
Yes.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:44:15]:
The tricolon. And the other one is anaphora. Good old anaphora. These are terms that are in literature. Anaphora, you've totally is when you repeat the same word in every part of the tricolon.

Tim Newman [00:44:30]:
Okay.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:44:31]:
And you and I are going to do this right now. Okay, listening audience, let's all do this right now. Because if I told you, hey, listen, Tim, I want you to pitch yourself using a tricolon with anaphora. Go. You'd be like, what is a tricolon? What is anaphora? And also, in the moment, you can't think of anything. Do you have your phone with you? Let's do this right now. Just for fun, right? This will be a fun little experiment. Okay.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:44:52]:
Can you go on to like, your favorite AI, your chat, GPT, whatever it is. Okay.

Tim Newman [00:44:56]:
Yeah, actually.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:44:57]:
All right.

Tim Newman [00:44:57]:
Yeah.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:44:58]:
I'm gonna do this with you right now in real time. And this is what I did with the team. I'm like, yo, cheat. Use the AI to get the. Get your ideas, then make it your own. So in a moment, we are going to make a value proposition for ourselves using a tricolon and anaphora. The rule of three. And you repeat something in every part.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:45:21]:
Okay, let me. Let me show you right here. And I'll tell you. I'm going to just. I'm verbally doing this right now because it's way easier than typing. Ready? Here we go. So I want you to make a tricolon with anaphora so I can pitch myself as a communications coach. My strategy is that I am very interactive, and I believe that if you don't have interaction and people conversing when you're trying to teach them, you're actually not teaching them anything.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:45:48]:
Please give me three examples of a value proposition using tricolon and anaphora. One very provocative, one very conservative, and one that is very funny.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:46:02]:
This is one of the ways we can work with AI. Whatever it gives me is not going to be perfect, but I can start using this as a foundation to make something that's really cool.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:46:12]:
So, Tim, if you're doing the same thing.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:46:16]:
Mine, mine. It's taking a moment to think. I'm going to give you mine and Then you're going to give me yours. Okay? Okay. Tricolon, anaphora. Give me three examples. And here it is. Ready? Okay.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:46:33]:
Ooh. Okay. Without interaction, there is no curiosity. And without curiosity, there is no learning. You see the repetitiveness? Without interaction, there is no. There is no. There is no that. There is no.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:46:47]:
Is the anaphora. Here's another one that was the provocative one, which I don't think is very provocative. Okay, here's the conservative one. With interaction, people engage. With interaction, people understand. With interaction, people grow. And the anaphora is with interaction, it's the three parts. Now here's the funny one.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:47:06]:
If you wanted a lecture, you'd watch YouTube. If you wanted a monologue, you'd call your uncle. If you wanted real learning, you'd talk to me. Oh, actually, that one's not bad.

Tim Newman [00:47:18]:
That's a good one.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:47:19]:
Now, notice there's three parts to it. And the naphore is, if you wanted. Now what I would do with. In this situation. And this is literally what I did today, as I said. Okay, that's great. But now I want you to combine them, change them, make them more personal or make them more specific. And then before you know it, you get a fun little thing.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:47:38]:
And then. But then here's how you leverage AI. I tell them this, and then, Tim, I say, okay, memorize one of them, because in a moment you're going to have to say it without looking at your phone. We don't have to do that part, but this is how you leverage it to make sure that you're not just doing AI, you're leveraging AI.

Tim Newman [00:47:53]:
Alright, so here's the first one that came up. I help people communicate with purpose, communicate with confidence and communicate without sounding like a malfunctioning robot.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:48:03]:
That's not bad.

Tim Newman [00:48:04]:
I love it. I help people communicate with purpose, communicate with confidence and communicate like they actually meant to open their mouth.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:48:11]:
Interesting. See, that's. And the first one is very much your personality too.

Tim Newman [00:48:14]:
I think it is.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:48:15]:
Yeah.

Tim Newman [00:48:16]:
So basically I put. One of them has. One of them has to be funny. One of them has to be dealing with confidence. One has to deal with communicating with value.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:48:26]:
Okay, what's the last one?

Tim Newman [00:48:28]:
Funny. Confidence and value.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:48:30]:
No, no, give me the. What. What's the one I gave you for the value one? Because you gave me two of them so far.

Tim Newman [00:48:40]:
I got. Hold on. I don't know where this one came from.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:48:43]:
All right, let's hear it.

Tim Newman [00:48:44]:
I help people communicate with purpose, communicate with confidence and communicate without us. And the awkward panic. Face. None of these actually say value.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:48:52]:
None of them. Well, you know what's interesting to me, though, is that now that you have that, here's the exercise you got to start. You and I, we have to start going. We have to iterate back and forth, but we can't look at them. Then all of a sudden, you start thinking of your own ways to say it. Then it becomes your own personal value proposition that not anyone can say. And this is how we work with AI to develop our communication, not to hinder it.

Tim Newman [00:49:18]:
Exactly.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:49:19]:
It's ideas. And then we use. We extrapolate those ideas through interaction and conversation. And look, that first one, I guarantee you, you're gonna be like, oh, I'm gonna save that. That's good.

Tim Newman [00:49:28]:
I am. Yeah, I'm definitely saving.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:49:31]:
Yeah. And then here's the thing. Now, every time. And every time you try and sneak it into a conversation, don't tell anyone at this, like, with your wife, be like, so how'd it go?

Tim Newman [00:49:39]:
Pretty good.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:49:39]:
You know, I really. I mean, I had a realization. I realized. And then try to say it, you'll mess it up a little bit. And then the more you do that, the more you'll put it in your own words. And then before you know it, it's going to be supernatural. You're going to say it to a group of people and they'll be like, damn, Tim, that's good. I want to hire you for my next movie.

Tim Newman [00:49:57]:
And that's the thing, because they're going to remember it. It's not a canned boring. My name is John. I help people with marketing metrics.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:50:06]:
Yeah, it's.

Tim Newman [00:50:07]:
It's.

Tim Newman [00:50:10]:
It's value. And they're gonna. It's memorable. They're gonna remember it.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:50:13]:
Yes.

Tim Newman [00:50:14]:
And.

Tim Newman [00:50:16]:
You want people to remember you, especially if you're trying to apply for a job.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:50:20]:
And here's the other interesting thing. When you said remember. It's very interesting because when you do this, people never remember. Even us right now, we don't remember the exact wording, but we have that moment of like. I just remember it sounding really good. So when I think about Tim and I'm going through resumes, I'm like, oh, that's the one who gave me that. That cool little phrase. God, what was it? I can't remember.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:50:39]:
I'm going to ask him. But that was a really good phrase. We usually remember the impact it had on us. Rarely do we remember it word for word. But because it's so rare for people to speak with impact, it stands out even more Exactly.

Tim Newman [00:50:52]:
Well, Yvonne, this has been amazing. I love it.

Tim Newman [00:50:58]:
You and I could go on for hours with this.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:51:00]:
I think so. And call me back, honestly, back next year.

Tim Newman [00:51:04]:
We will get you back on again, that's for sure. But because we haven't even talked about your book, there's so much we haven't talked about. So you're definitely coming back on. I'm already telling you that. So put in your calendar someday.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:51:17]:
My pleasure, my friend.

Tim Newman [00:51:18]:
Very soon. But in the meantime, where can people connect with you?

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:51:22]:
Yeah. So the company's called Public Speaking Lab. You can find me on LinkedIn, you can find me on Instagram. I think I'm on TikTok. Yeah, I'm on TikTok. It's just public Speaking Lab and the book, available at fine retailers everywhere. It's called End Boring. A Tactical Approach to Communication.

Tim Newman [00:51:42]:
For sure. Next time we have you maybe that. Maybe we start with the book because, you know, and here's. But here's the thing. I mean, you know me now and.

Tim Newman [00:51:53]:
I always try and get to it, but it's always one of the last things we talk about. But I think that especially with you in that book, maybe we start there next time.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:52:05]:
Sure. Yeah. And I'm actually working on a second book right now. Timeline. I'm not sure yet, but it's going to be exploring the dark side of communication because I find, you know, people like con artists and. And cult leaders to be.

Tim Newman [00:52:19]:
Cult leaders.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:52:19]:
Yeah, yeah. And no one thinks about them as being highly effective, persuasive, like communicators. We think of them as bad people. But, you know, Darth Vader found the light at the end. So I want to take that dark side stuff and use it to our advantage.

Tim Newman [00:52:33]:
Yeah, you use it for good.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:52:34]:
Yeah, for good. Yeah.

Tim Newman [00:52:36]:
All right, my friend, will you take care of yourself and we'll talk to you real soon.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:52:39]:
Tim, it's been a pleasure as always. Thank you for having me so much on the show. Thank you for everyone for listening and I'm excited to come back and see you again.

Tim Newman [00:52:48]:
And one more thing before I close out, I do. I do want to thank you for saying we have millions of listeners. So now the challenge to all of my listeners and followers.

Tim Newman [00:52:57]:
Go out and tell your friends because we. To show Yvonne we do have a million listeners.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:53:03]:
Million. Comment on the YouTube channel, comment on the podcast, share it with five friends, make a post on Instagram. Do it all, baby.

Tim Newman [00:53:11]:
Appreciate it. Talk to you soon.

Ivan Wanis-Ruiz [00:53:12]:
Thank you so much, Tim. Bye, everyone.

Tim Newman [00:53:15]:
Be sure to Visit speak with confidencepodcast.com get your FREE ebook top 21 challenges for public Speakers and How to Overcome Them. You can also register for the Forum for Public Speaking course. Always remember your voice Voice as a Power to Change Room. We'll talk to you next time. Take care.