Finding Your True Voice: The Power of Vocal Congruence and Self-Acceptance

Tim Newman [00:00:00]:
Most people think communication is about what they say, but what if it starts with how they sound? Welcome back to Speaking With Confidence, the podcast that helps you build the soft skills that lead to real results. Communication, storytelling, public speaking, and showing up with confidence in every conversation that counts. I'm Tim Newman, a recovering college professor turned communication coach, and I'm thrilled to guide you on your journey to becoming a powerful communicator. Today's guest is Wolfee Lanier. Wolfe is a Somatic Voice practitioner and researcher, completing a Master of Fine Arts in Voice studies at the Royal Central School of Speech and Drama. Originally from the mountains of Appalachia, he studied in the UK and now in New York City. Wolfe's journey has taken him through musical theater, yoga teaching, corporate coaching, and deep somatic practice, all converging on one central question.

Tim Newman [00:01:03]:
Why is there a gap between who we are and how we come across? Wolfe, welcome to Speaking With Confidence.

Wolfe Lanier [00:01:10]:
Hi. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Tim Newman [00:01:13]:
This is going to be a lot of fun because you approach things from a different perspective than most people, which I love. But really, before we. We get into this, you. You've got a great story. You grew up in Appalachia, you studied musical theater, you trained in yoga, and now you ended up doing Somatic voice research. How did this come about? Because that's not really the traditional. Traditional route.

Wolfe Lanier [00:01:42]:
Yeah, yeah, the, the, the story, the story is interesting. I mean, as a kid, I was very, very into theater. That's what I did growing up. That was my extracurricular activity. And so much so that I was like, you know what? I'm going to do this as a career. So I went to musical theater, conservatory and singer, actor, dancer, the whole thing. However, when I got to college, I became very self conscious in my performance abilities. I developed a massive sense of stage fright because I was being graded, I was being marked for me, for performing.

Wolfe Lanier [00:02:20]:
And I had this intertwining belief that I, as a performer, was who I am as a person. And so this really took a huge toll on me in college. After I graduated, I moved to New York City and I was in various musicals, tours, this, that. And then the pandemic happened and all that work went away. I was unable to perform, and I was at home. I moved back to North Carolina, to Appalachia, and just trying to figure out what to do with myself because I just couldn't perform anymore because of the lockdown. And I found a company in New York who did public speaking training. And I knew that I Had all these skills as an actor to help people present better.

Wolfe Lanier [00:03:04]:
So I did a little work study with them, and then that became an apprenticeship, which became coaching. And then I kind of grew in the company. I'm still with them. And during that time, I recognized the biggest issue with these people that I was working with who were like CEOs and leaders was their belief around what they had to offer, like this thing. Like they couldn't offer enough. And they didn't believe that they had the credibility or the sensibility to be able to guide people or to manage people or to open their mouth. You know, there are some people who struggle to even order a coffee. It was like locked.

Wolfe Lanier [00:03:46]:
Their body was locked during all of this, you know, being in New York City, I was doing yoga a lot and I was like, you know what? I can see how this work just blends. It comes together. And so I became a yoga teacher and did that on the side and had all these gigs and then finally was like, ah, there's a marriage here. There's a world where these things exist and I need to figure it out deeper. So I found myself going to London to study at the Royal Central School of Speech and Drama, researching now what I research, which is called vocal congruence. And that is the alignment of your sense of self to the sound of your voice. And so now that's what I do. That's.

Wolfe Lanier [00:04:26]:
That's the journey.

Tim Newman [00:04:28]:
Yes, it's so interesting as. And especially as we get into the whole idea of vocal congruence. You know, part of your story that. That really kind of resonates not only with me, but I'm sure with. With a ton of people is the idea that, you know, when you're, when you were acting on stage, that that became who you thought you were and, and how much of our self talk goes. Goes into that. And we judge ourselves because that's because we. Because we're actually being judged on our performance.

Tim Newman [00:05:05]:
And then that becomes our ourself, our ego, our whatever. Whatever you want to call it. And if it's not good, if somebody doesn't like it, then like you said, I'm not good enough or I'm not smart enough, or I'm not this or I'm not that. And then that leads to the people that you're working with who. People lock up who can't order a coffee.

Wolfe Lanier [00:05:24]:
Yeah, exactly.

Tim Newman [00:05:26]:
It's, it's. It's not really that far of a leap to get to that. Some people who may not have some of those thoughts, they Say, well, how does that happen? It's not that far of a leap.

Wolfe Lanier [00:05:39]:
No, not at all. It's actually very common, this thing. I mean, if you think about it, our life is our work. We work to live. We need to make money to survive. And so we put a lot of ourselves into our work because we gotta pay for groceries and bills and house and water. And so we intertwine ourselves with the actions we do to survive. And so the pressures get really high.

Wolfe Lanier [00:06:05]:
And when you're then being tasked with doing things like managing people or leading people and your, Your worth, your ability to live, is that then we, we get lost in am I capable? Because if I'm not capable, I can't survive. And it becomes quite existential, as you can probably hear.

Tim Newman [00:06:24]:
Right? Right.

Wolfe Lanier [00:06:26]:
Yeah.

Tim Newman [00:06:26]:
So let's get into this a little bit. You know, and most people think that communication is about what we say. Right. But you believe it starts with how they sound. And this is the research that you're doing. And so why does the voice reveal more than just the words that people are saying?

Wolfe Lanier [00:06:49]:
Yeah, I mean, if we think about it this way, if you're happy, your voice is going to sound happy. If you're sad, your voice is going to sound sad. We know someone's internal world by the way that their voice holds themselves. If the belief behind themselves is I'm not good enough, then so will the voice find its way to sound that way, and people will receive that. In this somatic world, in the body holistic world, this works in vibration, right? Like when we create a voice, we're creating vibrations that happen inside of us. And this thing that is unique to us, this voice, is then shared with the person who's listening to it. And so if we're not connected, if we're not aligned to this thing that we're giving people, our voice, our words, our connection, then there's a mismatch. We, we.

Wolfe Lanier [00:07:42]:
We are, we're. We're not together, we're not having a conversation. And so that's, that's the work. That's the thing. And I, I don't think speech is just speaking. I don't think it's how fast, how slow, how loud, how quiet you are. The prosodic. We call this prosody.

Wolfe Lanier [00:07:58]:
Elements around it. I think it's our, our integrity, our connection, our self that allows for speech to happen.

Tim Newman [00:08:07]:
Yeah, and it's such an interesting concept to, to, to wrap your head around. You know, I did a solo podcast recently about upspeak. You know, how you Know how our voice raises when we, when we're not sure of ourselves and we make everything sound like a question and how that, and how that is perceived by the people that we're talking to of this person isn't confident about what they're saying or talking about. And that's just one small level of the research that, that you're, that, that you do and that you're talking about. Is that, is that fair to say?

Wolfe Lanier [00:08:50]:
Yeah, that's fair to say. I, I upspeak to me, if we want to, like, use that as an example, is a byproduct of a lack of assuredness. Right, right. If I'm, if I don't, if I'm not sure of what I'm saying, my voice is going to reflect that. But why am I not sure of what I'm going to say? And that is what I'm curious about. Like, what is it? Let's get to it. Because then if we understand that, then we won't have the up speak. We will have accepted this thing that is tough for us, and the voice will then shift.

Tim Newman [00:09:21]:
Yeah, yeah. And I love that, the way you just said that, because figure out what it is and get after it. Figure out whatever that problem is, whatever that issue is, whatever the. Whatever it is, and address it. You know, I had, I was given a keynote last week, maybe, maybe a week, almost two weeks ago now. And I had a question from the audience about imposter syndrome, stage fright, you know, these types of things. And I said, you know, first and foremost, it's different for everybody. Everybody, everybody comes at whatever they do in a, in their own separate way.

Tim Newman [00:10:01]:
Right. You know, it may be the self talk. You and I may have the same self talk, but how we got to that self talk is, is more than likely very, very different. And we have to address where that actually self talk comes from and why it is individually before we can just start addressing that imposter syndrome. Because it's, it's. You can't just say to somebody, be confident, go stop and be confident, stop and, and, and start speaking like you, you believe what you're saying. It's not that simple. You have to, I love that you say you have to go back and truly address whatever that issue is to be able to move forward.

Wolfe Lanier [00:10:37]:
Yeah, you do. And I think it's Adam Grant, someone that I really look up to in like the industrial organizational psychology sphere. And this is very paraphrased, but he said something around imposter syndrome that's like, um, imposter syndrome is when other people believe in you more than you believe in yourself. And that really makes sense to me in how we connect to our, our talk, how we speak. And it's allowed me to think about how what we say externally also reflects in the way that we think internally. Like how am I talking to myself? Am I being kind to myself? And if I am being kind to myself, I can be, be very assured that when I speak out loud that it's going to be of kindness. But if I'm bullying myself, if I'm saying, oh God, I'm not good enough, I can't do this, then I'm going to speak like that. I'm going to have that as an undertone to everything that I say, you know?

Tim Newman [00:11:34]:
Yeah. And it's so true. I think most people are our own worst critics all the time.

Wolfe Lanier [00:11:41]:
Yeah.

Tim Newman [00:11:42]:
Now obviously that's, there are some people that, that don't have that, but I, I'm talking about in generalities, you know, just like you said, you know, you'd been acting and performing in stages in high school and then you get to college and all of a sudden you, you, you, you, you feel like you're being judged even harsher. And, and that, that becomes now your self talk. That becomes your block. You know, my story is, you know, I was in the military, it was leading people, but I got in front of my, you know, my basic human communications course and threw up. Where does that come from? You know, you, new, new pressures and we become our own worst critics. And then that becomes so much harder to overcome than if we were to, to not have that, that self talk. Because it's, it becomes constant. It becomes a 247 type of deal as opposed to having a one on one with somebody and say, okay, go work on this, this one thing.

Tim Newman [00:12:45]:
Right?

Wolfe Lanier [00:12:46]:
Yes, it's constant. It takes a practice. And I think that public speaking and communication is a practice and we have to set up the parameters for that practice because if not, it's just a thing that we do and we expect it to happen for us. But kind of going back a bit, I, I find it really admirable that this was your case. You threw up when you, when you were taking this course and then now here you are leading a podcast and keynotes and talking to people. And I think that speaks to the, the ability to work with the self and how when we do work with the self, deeper level self, we're able to transpire, we're able to get to a different place or the thing that we want to do. So this is. I mean, you're a great example of all of it.

Tim Newman [00:13:35]:
I appreciate that. But, you know, I joke about it now, you know, at times, you know, because if, you know, people say, you know, asking, what's the most embarrassing moment? And I say, well, here's mine and everybody. I mean, not that mine is worse than anybody else's, but when you. When you start to compare things and look at it, you know, getting from where I was to where I am, it didn't happen overnight either. It takes work. It takes practice. Like you said, it takes a commitment to not only wanting to be better, but a commitment to doing the things that you actually need to do to get better. Because a lot of people want to get better, but they're not willing to do what they need to do to get better.

Wolfe Lanier [00:14:21]:
But why do they want to get better? Why do they want to be good at this thing like that? That is always a question that I have with my clients. It's like, so why. Why are you doing this? Why do you want to speak in front of people? And everyone has a different answer, obviously. But a lot of people just don't know why they're doing it. And so it's just like, I'm doing this thing, and it scares me. And the purpose and the motivation behind it is very weak. And so their ability to show up to the practice is also very weak. We have to establish that why.

Wolfe Lanier [00:14:54]:
I think that's a Simon Sinek thing. Like, you really gotta have that underneath it completely.

Tim Newman [00:15:00]:
Yeah. And it's. And you're right, it's. It's because if you. If the why is strong enough, and that goes for anything. If your why is strong enough, you'll do what you need to do to get from. Not even say better, but from point A to point B or point A to point C or what, you know, whatever it is.

Wolfe Lanier [00:15:18]:
Yeah.

Tim Newman [00:15:18]:
So let's get. Let's get into the idea of vocal congruence. And what is it? And how is it quietly impacting how people show up every day?

Wolfe Lanier [00:15:32]:
Yeah. So vocal congruence, just to define it even further, is the alignment of your sense of self to the way that you sound. So if we were to find examples, we can think about it as an aging voice, for example, someone who has age in their voice. It's called oscillating. The larynx, the cartilages start to harden. So the movement of the voice changes. So the sound of the voice changes. And who we are inside doesn't quite match the Sound of the voice.

Wolfe Lanier [00:16:03]:
I think that's a nice example. Other examples could be gender affirming voice, work, injured voices, so on and so forth.

Tim Newman [00:16:11]:
Yeah.

Wolfe Lanier [00:16:12]:
And what happens is we, when, when we're not congruent, when we're not aligned, is we start to live in a dysphoric place where I open my mouth to communicate something that I need. Even that is if that's some coffee at a coffee shop. But it's not me that's coming out of my mouth. It's a different sound of something that I just don't relate to. So now when I speak, I feel disconnected, I feel separated from me. In my research, I worked with someone who is Korean. She's living in the UK and her first language is Korean and she has a Korean accent living in the uk. And with that there is a separation, a very distinguished separation of where her history, her story comes from and the story of the people who live in the uk.

Wolfe Lanier [00:17:05]:
Actually, when I lived in the uk, I felt that too. Right. As an American with an American sound, living in the uk, there was a huge separation. And that gave me, and from what I gathered from her, not a feeling of otherness. I don't quite belong within this thing. I am different than this. I'm in a different country and I'm speaking a different type of English. And it just didn't feel aligned.

Wolfe Lanier [00:17:32]:
It didn't feel equal, easy. It felt like I had to work to be a part of something.

Tim Newman [00:17:37]:
Right.

Wolfe Lanier [00:17:39]:
A level of self acceptance of this is my story, this is where I come from. And her, her story, where she comes from had to be understood. It had to go through a process of. A rigorous process of self recognizing. This is what I sound like, this is who I am, this is how I want to sound and this is how I'm going to show up to the world. And it takes, it's a process to be able to kind of reconcile and if needed, adjust the sounds to be able to do the thing that makes you feel aligned. So that's what we're getting at with vocal congruence.

Tim Newman [00:18:12]:
All right, so let me. That's a phenomenal story. And let me ask a question on that because you brought up something that I haven't really thought of. Right? Yeah. So in that example, you know, with you and your client, you're both sound different and then you're being thrust into a different culture as well. Right. So culture has a, also I think has a, has a big play in it. But what about somebody who isn't in a Different culture.

Tim Newman [00:18:43]:
Let's just say I grew up in mid Atlantic region, Baltimore. What if I had those thoughts where I was from and living. How does that. Because it's got to happen, right? It's. I mean, people have got to those thoughts, have. I'm not crazy, right? Those things have happened.

Wolfe Lanier [00:19:07]:
Yes, of course. And in my research that I just did, I worked from someone who is from Kentucky and she is PhD, very well learned. And she has a Kentucky accent, if you will, like recognizable. And this, this accent is something that she is explained to be quite limiting to her, making her feel like she is then less than all the other people who don't have this particular accent. And accent bias is a huge thing. This is researched a lot in the whole accent and dialect world. And something that we talked about that's really important is what makes her story unique and how her voice reflects her unique story. And with that, we had to get to the fact that her voice, her sounds, the way that her patterns of her tongue and her lips and her teeth have created this accent is rich of her.

Wolfe Lanier [00:20:09]:
It's just simply her. Nobody else can have that but her. And eventually that whole idea of, well, this is mine, I get to own this thing, which is my sound, became empowering eventually. But it takes, it takes time to understand that. So you know someone who lives in a particular place and feels like they sound a particular thing. Well, let's just keep stripping back the story. Let's keep going back to, well, what was it like for you as a kid? Which is going to be different than the, the neighbors next door.

Tim Newman [00:20:45]:
Right.

Wolfe Lanier [00:20:45]:
And that you living in that house with that experience is going to create a voice that is different to the person next door. You're going to hear language from your parents that that person next door is not going to hear. So no matter what, it's recognizing your story and being able to reconcile with that and be okay with that thing.

Tim Newman [00:21:06]:
Yeah. Again, it's so interesting to take it to that level. But that's really, again, getting back to. I think some of the reasons why we have some of this negative self talk is a lot deeper than people think or maybe even want to understand. Maybe a lot of people says, just get over it, just get over this, just go over that. Just, just be confident, whatever it is. But there's, there's such a much deeper, it's much more deeply rooted than what people think.

Wolfe Lanier [00:21:42]:
Yes. And this is why somatic voice work is something that I practice. And for those who don't know what somatic voice work Is the soma is the body. So it's a body focused voice practice for the ability to communicate essentially. And what is recognized within somatic voice work is that these experiences that we have in our life create tensions in our body. They create physical traumas that we armor our body. We tense our muscles to protect ourselves. And because we do this, we're tense, we're holding on to a lot of stuff and we can go through the process of just breathe, get over it, I'm going to be okay.

Wolfe Lanier [00:22:27]:
In our mind all we want. But the body is going to hold the tension regardless.

Tim Newman [00:22:33]:
Yes.

Wolfe Lanier [00:22:34]:
It takes focusing on the whole thing to be able to release enough to feel the flow, to feel the ability to connect with other people because it's a vulnerable thing. And when we feel vulnerable and not safe, we armor, we lock up. So we have to understand the safety, allow the vulnerability to be okay. And now we open up. I mean, I'm making it sound a lot more simple than it is. It's a big process.

Tim Newman [00:23:01]:
Yeah, but, but, but you're breaking down so people can actually understand what's, what's actually happening. Right. Because they don't think about like that. And just some of the things that you just said made me start thinking about some other, other things and other people that I've spoken with. And I'm going to hook you up with somebody who, I think you've got some, really, some good synergy there. So remind me at the end of this podcast and we're going to leave this in so there's proof and I'm going to send it to you.

Wolfe Lanier [00:23:34]:
Thank you.

Tim Newman [00:23:37]:
I joke with people. That's how I deal with things. I joke and I make light and self deprecating humor and I, I say I've got a face for radio and a voice for silent movies. And they say, well, I love your voice. I said, what's. It's not my voice. Because what I say, what I'm saying is people don't really want to hear from me. They want to hear from you.

Tim Newman [00:23:57]:
They want to hear from you. But a lot of times I think it's about my voice, but what's actually happening psychologically when somebody says that they hate the sound of their voice.

Wolfe Lanier [00:24:11]:
Yeah, it's a few things. The first thing is we create this perceived idea of how we should sound by society's expectations. That could be sounding masculine because I'm a man, that could be sounding goofy because I identify as being the funny one. That could be all these things that we have self identified With. And then we go and we listen to our voice, or we, um. I mean, you're being very vulnerable by using a podcast, right? You're. You're hearing your voice back probably all the time. And there's a mismatch between.

Wolfe Lanier [00:24:46]:
Potential mismatch. I don't know. I can't diagnose this. But there's a potential mismatch behind what you perceive that you want your voice to sound and how you're then reflecting that sound, how you're hearing that sound back. So psychologically, I mean, this is one theory, and there's so much. And I'm not a psychologist, I just study something psychological. But I think that the more that we start to accept the sound, the variations of the sounds that we have and kind of going back to the intentions or the things that we put into our minds that allow the sounds to be what they are, the more that we'll understand the complexity of the voice. It's a really complex thing that comes out of our mouth.

Wolfe Lanier [00:25:33]:
It's super complex. So, yeah, I think it's just that. Not just that. I think it is that.

Tim Newman [00:25:43]:
Yeah. And it's. When I do the podcast, whether it's this one or whether it's a solo teaching one, and I go back and I listen to it, and I think we all do this at times. I wish I would have said it this way, or I wish I would have, you know, put an emphasis over here or whatever it is. And I. At least for me, I think if I do those. If I were to have done those things, I would have either made the point stronger or maybe not as much emphasis on this and more emphasis on that, whatever it is, you know, and I've got to the point, at least for me, I'm. My voice is my voice.

Tim Newman [00:26:28]:
It's. It. It. I. I know some people, it sounds like. Like it's, you know, fingernails on a chalkboard. But, you know, again, I. I joke in that manner, but it's for.

Tim Newman [00:26:44]:
For me, it just is anymore. Like you said, you come to the point to accept that this is who it is, this is who I am, and this is the message that I'm trying to help and convey people with. But again, took work. I mean, if you go back and listen to some of my first episodes, oh, my. And some people may say even this episode is not so good. But. But if you go back and look to some of the first ones and compare them, you know, to. To the sound, to the comfort level, to the.

Tim Newman [00:27:17]:
To the flow of things, it's about doing the work and getting better at sharing messages.

Wolfe Lanier [00:27:23]:
Yeah, No, I think that's really important to say. And I think that, I mean, something that I'm reflecting on is, like, relational experiences, right? Like, yes. When I'm in a heightened state, when I'm emotional and confused and not sure of what I'm saying, then my voice isn't aligned with me. It might go like. I don't know, it might do a whole backflip because I, inside myself, am also doing a backflip. Right, Right. And it's interesting because as the listener, we hear that and we're like, oof, there's something going on. But then we also think, woof, wow, there's something going on.

Wolfe Lanier [00:28:15]:
And we hear that, and we hear that with some compassion. Right? We hear that with, oh, man. Like, you know, he must be going through something right now. And I think something that I really practice and what I work on, especially if I'm talking in front of a lot of people or teaching or even doing this, is a few things. One, I know that the way that I sound is the way that I sound. And if the person listening to this is judging me, well, that's really not a me thing. That's. That's a them thing.

Wolfe Lanier [00:28:50]:
And then two, if I'm present with you, if I'm present in this conversation or myself in my life, then my voice will reflect presence. It will be alive. It will be with you. It won't be in my head. It won't be back in shallow and soft because I'm afraid to talk to you. It won't be this way. It will be open and welcoming and curious. So, yeah, I mean, reflecting onto your first podcast, I can assume that it was new.

Wolfe Lanier [00:29:21]:
It was new. You were discovering you probably had some self consciousness. And now here you are, a bit more seasoned and practiced. And so some of that acceptance had to happen because you've had the time to work with it. Yeah, it's nice. It's nice. This.

Tim Newman [00:29:39]:
It is. And again, part of it, I think, is for most people, what they have, what they. They don't have to do anything. But what they should understand is that most people aren't judging them anyway.

Wolfe Lanier [00:29:53]:
No, nobody cares. Really. Nobody. Nobody cares. Everybody's so focused on themselves like that. That is what this is. And for us to be sitting here and talking, we have a purpose that we are leading with. There's a mission behind us, and that's why we're doing it, is for the listener to grow.

Tim Newman [00:30:14]:
Right.

Wolfe Lanier [00:30:15]:
And that keeps me going at least that makes me speak in the way that I want to speak. Is for you listener to be your best self.

Tim Newman [00:30:22]:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, and hopefully you don't have to go through some of the things that maybe that we went through to get. To get to that point. Right?

Wolfe Lanier [00:30:31]:
Yeah, for sure.

Tim Newman [00:30:33]:
Sometimes, you know, the learning comes in the struggle, but sometimes you can actually learn from. From other people's mistakes. So you don't make those. Make those same mistakes or go down some of those same roads. And that's. Oh, it's, you know, and one of the reasons why I do this and some of the other things I do is to be that for somebody that I didn't have. Right. To be able to help those people.

Tim Newman [00:31:02]:
Now you've also said something that's, that's. You say so many interesting things that make. That make me really. That make me really think, okay. When people are critiquing their own voice, they're also critiquing their speech. Why are they so tied together?

Wolfe Lanier [00:31:27]:
Yeah, I mean, speech is the mode that carries the voice. So the voice happens before we move our tongue. Excuse me, our tongue or our teeth or our lips to create speech. Speech itself is just a series of patterns. We can only make so many sounds as people. Right. Like, there's only so many sounds that this mouth can make. And the reason why they're so linked together is because they have to work with synchronicity to make speech patterns happen.

Wolfe Lanier [00:32:05]:
So if the voice is disconnected from the mind and talking, then we're missing really like 50% of the equation of what we're doing, and that is spreading vibrations and the connection of air, the restriction of air, the movements, the art, the muscles, all this stuff that's going on. We focus a lot in communication, training on outcome. Right. How good am I articulating myself? Am I saying the right word? These are outcomes.

Tim Newman [00:32:38]:
Right.

Wolfe Lanier [00:32:39]:
And we're forgetting the thing that gets us there. We need to break it down even further. The voice is created by air trapping itself behind the vocal folds, which then creates enough pressure to allow this vibration to happen in the larynx for then resonance to happen, for the tongue and the teeth to make air make patterns and shapes and allow the sound to then resonate and produce itself out into the world. I mean, it's a whole process to be able to speak. And we just don't really think about that. We let that go. We take it for granted. And it's really not meant to be taken for granted because the more that we pay attention to it.

Wolfe Lanier [00:33:17]:
The more that we recognize it, the more of a gift we start to feel that we have when we talk to people. And that's nice. I think that's nice.

Tim Newman [00:33:27]:
Yeah. And again, it's. We do take it for granted. And. But just hearing some of the things that you just said again, makes me think about, like, never really thought about. We can only make so many different sounds, so many different pitches, so many different, you know, noises or words or what have you. I never really thought about that. But maybe that's why when there are people, I'll just use a music reference.

Tim Newman [00:33:59]:
Or when we hear people that can sing really well. Or take Keith Urban as a. For example, when he talks, he has his Australian accent, but when he sings, it's not there. You know, when. When you have people like, like rappers who, who do. Do the beatbox stuff or, or those types of things, that. That's a. That's a.

Tim Newman [00:34:26]:
An incredible skill that again, most people can't do or you have. I, I just go back to. Go back to music, you know, opera singers who, who hit pitches and who can sing notes or. Or 99% of humans can't do. And we take a lot of that for granted.

Wolfe Lanier [00:34:53]:
We do, we do. And it's phenomenal. It's a phenomenal thing that we can do. And we get to shape the sounds. We get to explore the sounds. I mean, so many people, when I'm working with them for the first time, I'm asking them to hum, and there's something so blocked by that, like, it freaks people out to just explore their voice. This thing that they use every single day to get the thing that they need. I need milk at the grocery store.

Wolfe Lanier [00:35:23]:
And we're doing the same thing, but now we're just taking the words out and we're just going. And that's really scary for people. It's amazing. It's an amazing thing.

Tim Newman [00:35:34]:
It really is. And how does. How does ego come into play? And, and, you know, a lot. A lot of people think that ego is. Is a. Is a bad thing. And, and in a way, depending on how you look at it, it obviously is right if you make everything about you. But.

Tim Newman [00:35:53]:
But how can ego actually help someone communicate better?

Wolfe Lanier [00:35:57]:
Ego, to me, keeps our feet on the ground. Without ego, we become lofty. We become balloons, just float up and up and up. Ego is a nice thing because it keeps us human. It keeps us connected. It keeps us with each other to some degree. Too much of it, obviously, we become too. Too.

Wolfe Lanier [00:36:18]:
I don't know, you can fill in the blank.

Tim Newman [00:36:19]:
Yeah.

Wolfe Lanier [00:36:24]:
The thing with ego, though, is that we start to go into the world of perfectionism. Like, what does it mean to be a perfect speaker? And who. Who is that perfect speaker for you? And in speech to me, we have so many references of what is good and what is bad and what is this and what is that. And everybody's reference is different. So the ego latches on to something that they have found attractive and they strive to be something like that person. However, as we've talked about before, we all have different instruments and different faces and bodies and this, that and whatever, and we will never have the exact same voice as the person next to us. We're just structurally different. So the ego keeps us in line for goals, but it then limits us for exploration and for self acceptance.

Wolfe Lanier [00:37:22]:
As a theory, you know, that's to be worked on and discussed further, I think. But a nice starting point to think about.

Tim Newman [00:37:30]:
Yeah. But I think you're absolutely right. You know, the whole idea of. The whole idea of ego and how we view ourselves and if we, you know, go back to what you said just a couple minutes ago about, you know, why do we do this? We do this to help people.

Wolfe Lanier [00:37:50]:
Yeah, Right.

Tim Newman [00:37:51]:
And if our why is about us, then we're not actually helping people.

Wolfe Lanier [00:37:59]:
It's true.

Tim Newman [00:38:00]:
If we make our why about other people and helping them, then I think that's something natural that keeps our ego in. I'll just say in check or. Or grounded to. To be able to do the things that we want and need to do. To be able to help other people.

Wolfe Lanier [00:38:26]:
Yeah.

Tim Newman [00:38:29]:
You know, there's a saying that the more you help other people, the more you're going to be successful yourself. And I think if this goes back to communication, because to begin with, if we're communicating and we're always making the communication about us, then it doesn't. To me, it doesn't really matter what words we're saying, what sounds are coming out of our mouth. We're not actually helping, helping the audience or making those. Those connections. To me, communication is about connecting with other people and helping them.

Wolfe Lanier [00:39:06]:
Yeah, yeah. And as you're saying, the moment we start to get too wrapped up in our minds and then we make it about us is the. The moment we lose the person we're talking to. Yeah, they disconnect, they go away. So if we want someone to stay with us in a conversation or communication or anything, we have to focus on our connection with them. Not even to them, but with them, with them creating something with them. In the conversation. But the emotions, the emotions they override, they get very.

Wolfe Lanier [00:39:40]:
They're locked in our body. They, they're taught, they're learned, they're. And to be able to do this well and at ease, we gotta unlock it, gotta understand it.

Tim Newman [00:39:51]:
Yeah. And I love that you, you said it's not to them, it's with them. Communication happens with, doesn't happen to that. It's it, it has to be that way for it to work. You know, really all the way around. Kind of maybe a little bit off topic, but how do you see the different generations? You know. You know, a lot of work that I do is with college age students. Gen Z, maybe the younger millennial generation.

Tim Newman [00:40:24]:
How do you see their communication patterns compared to the older generations, like the older millennials, the Gen X's like myself? And what's the good that you see and what's the trouble spots that you see?

Wolfe Lanier [00:40:40]:
Okay, yeah, that's great. I think we were just touching on it a bit. The newer generations, younger generations are in search for collaboration. There's a search for respect and equality that is going on with Gen Z, I would say, and millennial to some degree, but more Gen Z. And what I notice, especially as I'm teaching is the more that I hold space for collaboration and togetherness, the more willing that they're able to contribute. The moment that we start to get authoritative or separate the roles of teacher to student, there can be a higher level of disconnect. However, we have to keep our boundaries as teachers and educators. And there does need to be a bit of a separation just for safety.

Wolfe Lanier [00:41:39]:
But also how do we create a space where we're creating together? Yeah, that's being craved. And I think that's being craved because a lot of our life is on the phone now. We're not actually building anything together. And we have this chance when we're in work or teaching or whatever to connect. And something that I experienced when I was in school is the authority to student situation. Where I was then, I feared my teachers. I was like, okay, they're going to grade me, they're going to judge me, they're going to whatever. And I checked out.

Wolfe Lanier [00:42:20]:
I couldn't, I couldn't handle that sort of dynamic. And I think that is what's adjusting in leadership too is that dynamic of authority is shifting. It's still authority, it's still someone who is guiding. But instead of we can go back to teaching. Instead of teacher to student, we are now coaches to student. We're coaching the students to be Their best learner self, not teaching them, not putting information into their brain. We're doing it all together, you and I, we're doing this together. So that's what I think the difference is.

Tim Newman [00:42:57]:
Yeah, and it's, it's so important. You know, I tell people I made two, two major shifts throughout my teaching career, and one of them was realizing that I wasn't, you know, when I, when I realized I wasn't connecting with students like I used to. And it, to me, it comes, it always comes down to, you know, building trust and building connection. If you build trust and build connection, that, that interaction or that, that student, that teacher, student line, I wouldn't say gets blurred, but the student is more open to, to learning. The student is more open to collaboration or. I wouldn't, I mean, I say criticism, but you know what I'm talking about. Growth. And me as the teacher, professor, is more open to listening to different points of view, just like anything else.

Tim Newman [00:43:58]:
I mean, if you trust somebody and you're connected with them, even if they have a different point of view than you do, you're more open to listening to it and hearing it, then.

Wolfe Lanier [00:44:10]:
Sorry.

Tim Newman [00:44:11]:
Than if you don't. No, you're good. Go ahead.

Wolfe Lanier [00:44:13]:
Yeah. No, I was just saying everybody right now is craving respect. Like, we're all just looking to be respected. And I don't think that age deserves any sort of disrespect. A younger person can learn, learn from an older person. An older person can learn from a younger person. We all just have to create this respect because if not, nobody's going to listen to anybody. And what's the point?

Tim Newman [00:44:31]:
Well, that's where we are now. I mean, from a societal perspective, that's where we are.

Wolfe Lanier [00:44:37]:
Yeah.

Tim Newman [00:44:38]:
Because you either agree with this or you agree with that. And if you don't agree with, with the other side, you're not listening. Listen to them. And that's, and that's the problem. There's, there's no, there's, there's no respect. There's no listening. There's no, there's no room for disagreement or growth or learning.

Wolfe Lanier [00:44:54]:
I agree.

Tim Newman [00:44:55]:
And. Well, I, I don't go down that road. But, but at least, at least here, at least with us, you know, it doesn't matter. I mean, if you're, if you're ever talking to me, always open. Always open. Always open to hearing a different perspective because you may actually learn something. Anyway, let's get back to better, more fun stuff. What's one thing, someone that's listening today that's something simple that they can do immediately to improve how they show up vocally.

Wolfe Lanier [00:45:25]:
Yeah, I think I said it already. And that's going to be humming. I challenge people to hum. Hum when you're. If you want to do it alone, hum when you're in front of people. But get vulnerable with your voice. Get vulnerable. Do things that you would never do regularly with your voice.

Wolfe Lanier [00:45:42]:
If that means singing a song, sing a song. If it needs to be in your shower alone, sing that song. But get used to the fact that you have this thing that is there to support you. Build a relationship to your voice by using. Using it, not shutting it off. So humming, singing, vibrating it in any way you want to is where I would start with almost anybody who feels shut off from their voice.

Tim Newman [00:46:10]:
That's awesome. And I remember, you know, when we did our pre interview, we did that exercise and it was, you may feel weird doing it, but after you start doing it over and over again, you're going to feel more comfortable. It just like anything else. Right. The more you do something, the more comfortable you're gonna be with it. The better you're gonna be with it, the more. The easier it's gonna. Going to sit with you.

Wolfe Lanier [00:46:37]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Tim Newman [00:46:40]:
Where can people connect with you and what's the best place for them to start if they want to better understand their voice?

Wolfe Lanier [00:46:46]:
Yeah. So I have some socials. My Instagram is Wolfe Linear, which wolf with an e at the end dot linear. I have LinkedIn, which is also my name. And then my website is just wolflinear.com and hit me up if you want to work on this kind of stuff. And I recognize that everybody has a different need with this, where everyone's coming into it with a different angle. And at this point, I've heard a lot of the angles. I'm sure I could hear a different one, but I've heard many of these angles.

Wolfe Lanier [00:47:20]:
So come and let's talk about how voice can support you and your communication and your speech and your performance and your confidence and. Yeah, yeah, hit me up. I'm happy to. I'm even happy to give out resources to anybody who walks into my door. Just as a place to launch many books, many things. Yeah.

Tim Newman [00:47:44]:
Well, thank you so much for spending some time with us today. And I love this conversation. And the whole idea to me is, especially when we approach it from a different perspective like that. Very insightful. And some would say making me think is a good thing. I would say making me think is I need probably. Probably need to do more of that. So thank you so much for this and we'll talk to you soon, Bud.

Wolfe Lanier [00:48:11]:
Of course. Thanks for having me.

Tim Newman [00:48:14]:
Be sure to visit speakingwithconfidencepodcast.com to get your free eBook, the Top 21 Challenges for Public Speakers and How to Overcome Them. You can also register for the Formula for Public Speaking course. Always remember, your voice has the power to change the world. We'll talk to you next time. Take care. Sam.