The Power of Written Communication in Unlocking Career Confidence with Amy Adler

Tim Newman [00:00:10]:
Welcome back to Speaking with Confidence, the podcast that helps you build the soft skills that lead to real results. Communication, storytelling, public speaking, and showing up with confidence in every conversation that counts. I'm Tim Newman, a recovering college professor turned communication coach, and I'm thrilled to guide you on a journey to becoming a powerful communicator. Today's guest is Amy Adler. Amy is a nationally recognized career and resume strategist who has spent years helping executives, professionals, and even students tell their stories on paper in a way that gets them noticed. She's the founder of five strengths, career transition experts, a speaker at national conferences, and a coach who knows how to translate a career into powerful language that actually opens doors. So if you've ever wondered how to make Your resume or LinkedIn profile reflect who you really are and how to make sure it matches up with what you say in the interview, this is the episode for you. Amy's here to show us how written communication can be just as impactful as a spoken word.

Tim Newman [00:01:08]:
Amy, it's so good to see you. Welcome to the show.

Amy Adler [00:01:11]:
Hello. Thank you so much for having me today.

Tim Newman [00:01:13]:
You know, you've lived all over the place and I love having people like you on because as we travel, we see things that people who stay in one location necessarily don't. So how is your life experiences and travels influenced the way that you communicate, whether it's in speaking or writing?

Amy Adler [00:01:36]:
What an interesting question. I think part of it is integrating when you have to integrate into a new place. And as you say, I've lived kind of all over the place, all across the country, from the east coast to the Intermountain west, and. And the cultures are very different.

Tim Newman [00:01:53]:
Yeah.

Amy Adler [00:01:54]:
So the New York minute is a real thing. And out in Salt Lake City, things are very slow and in a pleasant way. So adapting to the local color, I think is. Is really important if we're seeking to interact with people in a way that they expect to be interacted with.

Tim Newman [00:02:16]:
Yeah.

Amy Adler [00:02:18]:
So I think in terms of writing, that's, that's speaking, but in terms of writing, I think one of the things that I have found as a resume writer is that the farther west I seem to go, the less, the less willing people are to shine a light on themselves and showcase themselves and talk about themselves. And the interesting thing is hiring teams care where you live. In that sense, they're not looking for you to be very self effacing in your communication style when you're applying for a job. So coaxing that out of people and helping them shine has been really Terrific.

Tim Newman [00:02:59]:
Yeah. That's really interesting because I never thought about that from a writing perspective and how regions really approach it, but I can kind of see that, you know, in my travels now, I've never lived out west, but I've. I've traveled extensively out there. And as, you know, like. Like you say, it's. It's way more laid back, it's slower, but I never really thought about that from. From writing perspective of how. And we'll talk about this here in a second, how maybe we.

Tim Newman [00:03:32]:
We become. Become more introverted in our writing as opposed to our speaking. You know, I remember when I moved from. I did my doctorate down in Mobile, Alabama, and when I first got down there, I. It took me a while to adjust coming from the Northeast, you know. You know, we're moving, we're popping, we're, you know, we think fast, we talk fast, and you go down there. And I remember telling my wife, I've got to plan two hours to go to the grocery store, because people, we'll just stop and we'll talk to you, you know, and that. That was.

Tim Newman [00:04:05]:
Was kind of a culture shock for me. So. So I kind of get it.

Amy Adler [00:04:10]:
Yeah. I will tell you a story that my husband reported to me when we were living in Minnesota. We just moved there, and he worked in a building with a fairly tall, like a long elevator ride. And he came home one day and sort of in. In astonishment, said, I got into the elevator at work today and somebody I'd never seen before, had no interaction with prior, looked at me, grinned and said, I quit smoking 10 years ago today. And he said, congratulations. But he had no idea why this person was revealing this detail. And as we lived there longer, it became very clear that you couldn't go to the grocery store for less than two hours, and you were meeting people that you knew in this very small town.

Amy Adler [00:04:52]:
And people were very open and very willing to share kind of what we thought were extremely personal details with complete strangers, but in the most genuine, kind and loving way.

Tim Newman [00:05:04]:
Right. And why do you think it's not the same from a writing perspective? Because to me, that's just. To me, it would seem that we would be more open with writing because to me, that's much more personal thing that maybe we don't think people are going to see or judge. Like speaking.

Amy Adler [00:05:29]:
Yeah. You know what? I really don't know. Since I launched my resume writing practice in Salt Lake City, I kind of only had that perspective. But I was very surprised that in my interactions with my clients, I was always the fast talking one. And I had to learn to slow down and frankly, learn to listen better. You know, use those active listening skills in a way that I didn't. It's not that I didn't use them, just I didn't use them in the same way. And providing a real space, like a space with boundaries for them to say what they wanted to say without that New York interruption all the time, you know, sort of state of being that I found very normal, I quickly learned was not very normal.

Amy Adler [00:06:19]:
So communicating with people the way they expected really helped a lot. And slowing down to the point where I felt I was crawling, speaking the way I am right now is incredibly slow to me. But I think it helps the audience or my audience understand what I'm asking and convinces them in some way that I'm really listening. Of course, I would be listening anyway, but showing them.

Tim Newman [00:06:47]:
Yeah. And I also think that's a learned skill. Slowing our. If we're not slowing our thoughts, at least we're slowing our speech. We're slowing down how we come across. And for me, even though I am from the Northeast, I've always been kind of a slower talker because I have to be because of how my brain works. You know, the adhd. If I just spewed out everything that comes into my head, it wouldn't be good, you know, so learn how to slow down and actually communicate the things that you actually want to communicate.

Tim Newman [00:07:24]:
And the whole idea that you brought up of, you know, the platinum rule, meeting people where they want to be meted, meeting people where they want to be, meeting people where they want to be met is so important, and communicating how they want to be communicated to really does build a much deeper connection with the audience.

Amy Adler [00:07:46]:
And if my goal then is to help people find a way to trust me, which I know has to be extremely difficult in many cases. We've never met face to face. We don't know each other. We might have a mutual connection, but I have to convince them somehow that I'm on their side, that I'm listening and that I'm going to do right by them in, in one of the most important decisions or, or thought processes of their lives. Maybe third, let's put it third. After finding a life partner and maybe having kids, getting a job is going to be the next big thing. Yeah, right. So helping, helping them feel as comfortable as possible and giving them as much of the floor as they want, it is key.

Amy Adler [00:08:29]:
And sometimes communicating for me is saying nothing, just letting them, yes, letting them talk, giving them the space, like I said, because that's what they really want. They want to listen to somebody who is empathetic, who's going to listen, who's going to turn what they are saying into something compelling for their future audiences.

Tim Newman [00:08:53]:
Exactly.

Amy Adler [00:08:54]:
I say. I often joke in my first sort of introductory call with people, I talk a lot about how this works and what I'm going to do and answer their question and then almost uniformly, almost uniformly tell them, this is the most I'm ever going to speak. I want to ask you questions, and I want this to be your space. And I think people are surprised by that because I don't think many people have had the opportunity to be asked all these questions and then given as much unfettered room as they want to say what they want to say.

Tim Newman [00:09:25]:
Yeah. Because I think most of the time when we're having conversations with people, we're waiting for our turn to talk. We're not actually listening and trying to understand whoever it is that we're communicating with what they're actually saying. And when you come across somebody like you who, especially in the professional setting, you're trying to help them. If you don't listen, there's no way that you can help them. If you don't let them say the things that they need to say or get across the things that they need to get across, there's really no way that you can truly help them meet the goals that they're trying to meet.

Amy Adler [00:10:06]:
And it also gives them a chance to maybe, for the first time ever, talk about these things that are in their heads, their experiences, their goals, their hopes for themselves, and launch that discussion so that this is the first time they're having this discussion, but certainly not the last. Because I think the worst time to start that conversation with. With yourself or to prepare what you want to say, the worst time to start that is actually in the interview, because that's. That's a recipe for panic. And nobody wants that. And I certainly don't want that for the. The job seekers who are engaging me to help them do better than they could do on their own.

Tim Newman [00:10:45]:
Yeah.

Amy Adler [00:10:46]:
Yeah.

Tim Newman [00:10:47]:
And, you know, you and me are very similar in a lot of things. You're an introvert, and so am I. And here's where I think we differ a little bit. You love public speaking. I like it. You know, it's a. To me, I wouldn't say it's a necessary evil. I like it.

Tim Newman [00:11:04]:
But you love it. And how has being an introvert really influence your style of coaching and resume? Writing, because again, transferring who we seem to be outwardly, even as an introvert, and transferring that into the written form, it's truly an art form.

Amy Adler [00:11:25]:
So I think that's a whole bunch of questions. I feel like, no, no, it's good. But I will tell you. So when I was a kid, getting up and doing the book report in front of the classroom or whatever it was, was torture. I genuinely had, you know, shaking knees and quivering voice. I was terrible at presenting and I'm sure I looked like I was having a terrible time, because I was. But something really exciting happened to me as I became an adult and particularly in business school. So I was an introvert my whole life and that didn't change.

Amy Adler [00:12:01]:
And I definitely recharge some slowly and expend energy fast. Right. But in, in business school, we had to present so much that it was almost a weekly thing. And I just got used to it. And all of a sudden I realized it wasn't quite as scary as I had thought it was in the past. And I really, I was, I was genuinely terrified, whether from a sense of introversion or at that point shyness, or just the sense that I felt like everyone was judging me. And I'm sure they weren't because people are never as interested in you as they are in themselves. I definitely know that now.

Amy Adler [00:12:32]:
But it became this. I loved having this sense of command over the room and to share what I knew and to feel like an expert. So taking that expertise and shifting that to a one on one conversation or that sense of excitement around talking to people, it's kind of the same thing, not just fewer people. Right. So shifting that to a one on one interaction and using that, I think, you know, the superpower of introversion, like listening and mirroring somebody. I didn't know that was a thing. I think I read it in. It might have been in quiet.

Amy Adler [00:13:13]:
I don't know if you know the book. It's about what it means to be an introvert. And one means that as a superpower, but to interact with people the way they're interacting with you so they feel more comfortable like you're listening to them. And then absolutely blowing that up on paper and taking what somebody might think as their story is very ordinary and turning it into something so magical and so special and so profound and so impactful, helps them get out of that space too, and gets them away. I don't know whether they're going to be introverts or not. Most of the time my clients are introverts just because I think the people I attack, but getting them away from being shy, which is a totally different thing, being self effacing, being the person who wants to hide all the time and saying, look what I did, I turned this career of mine into something people need. And I'm using it, sort of using a resume writer, using this vehicle, this thing that I, that I do for them. And as a job seeker, they, I can say, if I'm the job seeker, I can say, yeah, I got some help, but look how good this looks, look how competent I look.

Amy Adler [00:14:23]:
And I feel so much more excited and kind of in my center of power to go and showcase all the things that I know how to do. So I hope I'm giving them not just the letter, but the spirit, if you will, of owning their story and helping them get out of wanting to be self effacing and wanting to be quiet. And I can't change whether they're going to be introverted or shy. Right. And I don't want to because that's.

Tim Newman [00:14:53]:
Just who we are. Right. And that's who we are. Yeah.

Amy Adler [00:14:57]:
So if I, if I can, if I am comfortable with that and say, I know who you are, I understand where you're coming from, but here is where you are so amazing at what you do. Please use this language, please use these stories because they tell you something so compelling about you that people just can't ignore. I think that's, that's how that converts and people feel, I hope, like they've learned something about themselves, whether it's literally the stories they've already had stored in their heads or frankly, just a way to tell those stories.

Tim Newman [00:15:31]:
Do you have a story where, you know, you take somebody like you just described and they, they've truly blossomed and truly kind of grew into who they are and shined as, as the introvert or the shy person and gone on to, to truly embrace that and be successful so.

Amy Adler [00:15:52]:
Well, I can't say about the, the one I'm thinking of is, is such a new story. It's probably in the last two to three weeks. So there, there is no end of the story yet. We don't know how it's going to roll out, but somebody who felt kind of beat down in their job, I'm thinking of, and they've been at their company for a couple decades, like a while, had multiple roles, did some pretty spectacular stuff, but felt kind of marginalized, I think is the best way to put it. And that they didn't recognize their own zone of genius. And I Think when they saw the, really the first draft of the resume, there really weren't too many revisions on it. When they saw the first draft of their resume, I just got an email. So I didn't, I didn't talk to the person about it at that time, but I got this sort of like wow message.

Amy Adler [00:16:42]:
I had no idea there was a way to encapsulate all the things I had done and make this forward looking rather than sort of sad and retrospective. I don't know what, what else to call it and, and to kind of get the guy out of their funk. Right? Like, right. And if they're out of the, the boundaries or the lane they had set for themselves and say, well, this is all I can do, this is all I ever was and I must have hit my peak some time ago. I really don't think that's true. And helping them see their magic is so great. I will also tell a story. This is way back in the beginning of my resume writing career and I've been doing this now like 16 odd years.

Amy Adler [00:17:25]:
It was for an HR person and she, I don't remember if it was an email or a phone call, but I remember the language because it was so striking and kind of humorous. So she's an hr, so she does all the functions of HR including hiring and all that other stuff. She said, I don't know who this girl is, but I think I have to hire her. And I was like, wow, we won.

Tim Newman [00:17:48]:
That's awesome.

Amy Adler [00:17:49]:
We absolutely won. And it made me feel so good that I changed her perspective on herself. And that's really what I hope to do because there's so much to going in to the process with confidence and feeling that special spark that I think is contagious.

Tim Newman [00:18:07]:
It really is. And I love that because if we think about the whole job search process, we do try and cram everything it is into, you know, depending on your career or whatever, a one to two page. This is what I've done, this is who I am. And it's very bland. It's very, like you said, not forward thinking. And you look at it, you say, okay, I've accomplished this stuff, but so what? I mean it doesn't really empower us. But to be able to do what you do for people to see who they are, to feel good about those types of things changes the mindset. To go into, even thinking about preparing to go into an interview, it's not.

Tim Newman [00:18:56]:
Well, I just, I've done these things, okay. It doesn't really mean anything but change that mindset, to feel good about it and to develop the stories to be able to tell in that interview that's going to make these people shine.

Amy Adler [00:19:12]:
It's so lovely when that happens. And I think people don't come into the resume writing process with anything more, kind of, as you said, with anything more than the notion of, well, I need this piece of paper because I have to go give it to somebody. And, and the default mode is always, let me just write down what HR thinks my job is. And that's absolutely like, well, okay, 99% of the time. Never the case. Sometimes it is. But I'd say in, in the main, it's, it's people taking what HR has told them or what their boss has told them they need to be doing and finding a new way to make them make themselves successful in that position. And then because they've, they've owned what they are doing, they can talk about the ways they have done things that no one else has ever done before.

Amy Adler [00:20:00]:
And I think the biggest mistake in that sense that people make is assuming that anyone in the world would have done it this way. And I've heard that more than once that people are like, well, of course I would do this. You know, I would have done this or would have taken this particular project on or done it this way, because that was what the job was. And I was like, no, that's what you did in the job. The job is what HR said. You know, you show up and you do this thing and you report to this person, you have this team or whatever it is, you decided to make something new out of it. So let's talk about how you did that.

Tim Newman [00:20:33]:
Yeah, that's a, that's a truly, truly interesting point. Yeah, I've never thought about it that way. Now I think I may have approached it that way. But to putting it like that, because we all do approach and think about things differently, but not necessarily from the job perspective or the task perspective even. That's a really interesting point.

Amy Adler [00:21:02]:
I appreciate your saying so. And I think that's the same reaction that I get from my clients is I just literally never thought about it this way before. I literally never thought about it this way. So I get the privilege then of reflecting back to them exactly what they're saying to me. You know, I can't make anything up and I certainly don't want to, but to push a little harder and say, so who else benefited from this? Who did you have to loop in to make this a viable, you know, ongoing concern or whatever? The question might be, or something as simple as, so that automation that you built, what did it replace? And, you know, how long did it used to take and how long does it take now? And they're like, oh, yeah, you know, it used to take a week and, you know, five people, and now it takes two days and three people. You know, something like that. And people are my clients sometimes don't make that connection.

Tim Newman [00:21:53]:
Right.

Amy Adler [00:21:54]:
And I love. I love connecting those dots for them.

Tim Newman [00:21:56]:
And then you take that and you build, fill that into the story during an interview. And now you've shown real value.

Amy Adler [00:22:03]:
Right, Right. And I think the win there is a. The confidence that comes with being able to tell these stories in a competent way, sort of beginning, middle, end. Here's the win. But also to show to your audience, the people who are doing the hiring, that you are intentionally de. Risking their hiring process. You're saying, I have done what you need before. So because I've done it before, I can show you how well it, you know, how good it turned out.

Amy Adler [00:22:32]:
And I can promise you I'll do the same kinds of things for you in the future. So the situation might not be identical, but if there's a process that needs to be fixed. Well, I did this one. It was seven days, and now it's two or whatever I said. And it was five people. And now it's, you know, X people. And. And so much time has been saved.

Amy Adler [00:22:49]:
You probably have a different process, but I understand the mechanism for making that happen, and you can absolutely count on me to do that into the future. And they're like, oh, this person's already done this. I don't have to explain the value of a lean operation or the way this works. And I can just give them the context and the things, the tools that we have and let them go and let them do the thing that they're hired to do and that they can do best. And that's a very compelling sense of confidence, I think, on the part of the hiring team.

Tim Newman [00:23:18]:
Yeah. And my guess is this all kind of leads back to the overall strategy of building the content of the resume. I guess that's where you really start. Right. Would that be a correct assumption?

Amy Adler [00:23:37]:
So, yes, but the resume strategy has really two pieces. If you can think about the resume as being in the middle, everything that came before is their history. Where they want to go is over here. So this document is supposed to connect those two things. So knowing all the things you have done or being able to talk about them or uncover them in the process and knowing exactly where you want to go makes that resume a marketing document, not just a laundry list of stuff you've done. And that is so much more effective.

Tim Newman [00:24:12]:
100% agree. But how do we figure out. How do you figure out what the strategy is, though, right? I mean, because I'm just thinking about it. Take me as a, for example, I've kind of got an idea of things I want to do. I definitely know what I've done, but I'm not really sure on how I'm going to get to point B based on things I've done. How do you help somebody to define or develop that strategy? Because that, to me, you've already opened your eyes in and already opened their eyes in how they view themselves and the things that they've done. Now, how do you get them to develop that strategy moving forward, if that makes sense.

Amy Adler [00:25:09]:
It absolutely makes sense, and it's an extremely important question, and I'm glad you raised it. So I say I'm an executive resume writer or resume writer and career coach. Career coach is a pretty expansive term, right? There are some people who are career coaches who don't write resumes, and there are some people who are career coaches because they have to be, because they write resumes. And I think I fall into that category. I frankly wouldn't be the right person for someone to say, I have no idea what I want to do, not a clue. I haven't thought about it. And I just know it's nothing I've done before. That's too big of a question for somebody who is operating in the space that I'm operating in.

Amy Adler [00:25:50]:
But if somebody says, I've done all these things, I know I'm good at it. So here's my body of work, so to speak. And in the future, I'd like to work in this adjacency or in this same kind of role, but a different or a different industry. This is something I can work with. Or they might say, I'd like to do something in a different industry and in a slightly different role. Is that possible? And I'm always kind of navigating this with my clients and saying, well, you can pull as many levers as you want, but the more levers you pull on this, the harder it's going to be for your resume alone to make this compelling argument. We can do what we can, but we can't change who you are and what you've done. We can only reframe it, right? So when they get to that point, I want them to Share with me job postings that they might be interested in.

Amy Adler [00:26:38]:
And this is just a series of thought experiments. It's free. There's, there's no cost to, to doing this other than time. And I think it's such a worthwhile exercise because it does a couple things. It enables people to follow whatever path they want to follow, whatever thought process they want to follow, as many times as they want to do it. So they could say, well, I'm going to look at path A through path, you know, Q, and then start narrowing stuff down. That's just time to do that. Yeah.

Amy Adler [00:27:08]:
And if they say, well, I want to be a dentist, but they've never gone to dental school, they didn't study science well, but then I have to say, okay, fine, you might want to do this. And maybe the first plan is to get you to dental school. And if you want to do that, what do we need to do to make sure you can do that?

Tim Newman [00:27:21]:
Right.

Amy Adler [00:27:21]:
That's literally never happened before. That's just a hyperbolic example. But, but I did have one young guy call me at one point who was, I think a year or two out of college who insisted he wanted to be a CEO for 500,000 a year. I didn't know how he was going to do that. And I, I pretty much told him like this, this is a great aspiration for you. And it, I'm sure it will happen someday down the road. It's just not going to happen now. It's not going to happen today.

Amy Adler [00:27:46]:
So what can you do that's going to get you where you want to go? That's the next stepping stone. But let's say we have a reasonable solution set of job postings and, you know, three or four or five, maybe the goal is to have them all look the same, mostly the same, because this tells us two things. One is that the job the person's looking for, that kind of a job exists. So we're not making stuff up here in this market. I don't think we have the privilege right now anyway of making our own way into jobs. They usually have to be out there and somebody has to be hiring for them. That could change. It was different in the past.

Amy Adler [00:28:21]:
I just think the market was a little bit tighter. So. So the job exists, and the job exists in sufficient quantity, like I said, 2, 3, 4, 5, that it'll exist again. So this resume is something that somebody can use into the future. So if they don't get an interview for that very first one, it's not like they're all hope is lost and they have to start over. They have this very, very thoughtfully prepared, targeted resume that they can use to lots of jobs that are like this. And, and having people do that research gives them a framework to say, this is what I want, this is what I don't want, this is what I never want to do again. And here's where I think it matters.

Amy Adler [00:29:03]:
Here's where I think I can make a difference. And even if the job is, the job postings are, are scattered across the country, I don't care about that because apart from particularly regionally specific roles, the jobs will show up again in some similar way because HR broadly has already thought these things out and we're just taking advantage of the fact that they've done all this research already. So they now have a goal that's kind of written down, more solidified than it was before. Because I want a new job is pretty scary, but I want this job in this industry that's pretty doable, that feels much more manageable and it intentionally sets constraints on the process so people can do what, what they want to be doing as opposed to be, you know, flailing, guessing, worried.

Tim Newman [00:30:00]:
Yeah. And I guess it also seems not only doable, but the small wins, it seems like it's in reach. Like you said, it's not the $500,000 CEO role that. Okay, like I said, it's aspirational. The industry I come from, I was in the sport industry and I had students who said they wanted to be the general manager of Pick a Team. I said, that's great. Let's figure out how we're going to get you there. But There are only 32, you know, Major League Baseball, general managers.

Tim Newman [00:30:33]:
You're 32, possible. You're not just going to walk out of here and go into that role. You know, there's, there's things that you would need to be to, to do. And while that, that goal is out there, let's, let's focus on some attainable stepping stones first, you know, get that first huge win, get that next win. And, and you know, that's what really, you know, from my perspective, that that's something that really, really builds confidence and momentum. Not only focusing on this and failing, failing, failing, because two years down the road you don't, you haven't reached that yet.

Amy Adler [00:31:11]:
Yeah, I think that's true. I think being realistic, but also aspirational.

Tim Newman [00:31:17]:
Yeah.

Amy Adler [00:31:18]:
Kind of sets the direction and the pace. And just if something doesn't happen today, doesn't mean it won't happen in the future.

Tim Newman [00:31:25]:
Right, right. You know, and, you know, when we talked before, you told me a story about, you know, your client who asked about a resume and he was going into prison. To me, that's a really powerful story because they're already thinking, okay, when I'm done, things are going to be different.

Amy Adler [00:31:52]:
I, I genuinely hope that's what happened. I kind of lost a follow up, as they say. This person was genuinely concerned about what was going to happen when, when he got out and he knew he wasn't going to have access when he was inside. Right. And he certainly had plenty of skills. This, this was not a violent criminal. This was somebody who behaved badly and, and got called on the carpet for it.

Tim Newman [00:32:23]:
Right.

Amy Adler [00:32:25]:
But he, he would seem like a nice guy. He had a lot to offer and he wanted to prepare himself. I mean, I think that's an extreme, to be honest. I haven't worked with maybe more than two or three people who were working against a sort of systemic issue like that. Most people show up and they just don't know how they're going to make the, the next step. I won't even call it a leap, but just the next step between where they are to the thing that they maybe should be doing next. Maybe it's for better money, better work, life balance. Maybe it's because they want a new challenge or maybe they want to step back from a challenge.

Amy Adler [00:33:07]:
I recently worked with somebody who I thought, I was surprised because I guessed, oh, you must want to be doing this in your next role. He said, no, I'm at the end of my career. I love what I'm doing. I just want to keep doing it and know that I can contribute and be okay. Being in this particular situation, kind of the number two guy in the department, not the number one guy, because I'm good at it. And it's rewarding in its own way. So people just have to know what they want and how they're going to get to move forward. Yeah.

Tim Newman [00:33:38]:
And I, as, I'm, as I'm listening to you, I'm thinking, my guess is most people go through this at some point in their life. Right. The uneasiness, the unknowing, the trepidation of what am I going to do? How am I going to get there? And, and they're not alone.

Amy Adler [00:34:02]:
No, by far.

Tim Newman [00:34:06]:
I think knowing that you're not alone and knowing that there are people out there that can help you and being willing to reach out and actually ask for that help is huge and important. And I think that, um, if people would understand that reaching out and asking for help is not a weakness, it's, it's really a strength. And that most people, if you reach out and ask for help, they're going to help you or they're going to direct you to somebody who can help you. If I can't help you, I'm not going to say I can help you, but that's not my, that's not my area. But let me, let me connect you to this person over here. They could probably help you. And if they can't, they'll, they'll, they'll direct you to whoever. But I think most people have been in the situation before.

Tim Newman [00:34:55]:
If not, they will be.

Amy Adler [00:34:57]:
I appreciate your saying this. I, I hope there's no stigma, right, in asking for help for something you do maybe twice in your life or three times in your life. There's plenty of things I don't know how to do, right. I don't know how my, my car functions under the hood. Like, I just don't. Like, you know, I can, I can do a handful of things. I can't do all of it. And I don't feel like it's a shameful thing to ask.

Amy Adler [00:35:23]:
You know, I go to the dentist like everyone else does because they know stuff. You know, when something happens, you know, I go seek out a professional. But I think people think about this differently. But if we turn it all around and say, and I work with senior level players most of the time, not all the time. I've worked with kids as young as high school and they're awesome. But if I'm looking at sort of management all the way through, sort of the top echelons, these are people who are accustomed to hiring really smart teams, talented, capable people every day for their companies. And whether they hire one person or 50 people, they're saying, I trust you. My team down, you know where you're sitting.

Amy Adler [00:36:05]:
I trust you to do this better than I could. That's why I brought you on. I could do it better or faster. I wouldn't hire you, right? But I'd like to see people translate that to hiring experts in other realms. I do this every single day, certainly more times in a week maybe than some people do in a lifetime. So I'm here to offer that expertise and say, I've traveled this road. I'm pretty sure I know what works. I want to get to know you so I can take what I know, shape it to what you need, and then you can go be successful.

Tim Newman [00:36:40]:
Right.

Amy Adler [00:36:40]:
And there shouldn't be. I don't think that stigma of. I had to get somebody to help me tell my story because when was the last time you did it? I was probably never.

Tim Newman [00:36:50]:
Exactly. So now let's take this step forward. So we have the resume, we have the written document. How do you make sure that the written and the verbal actually match the person? Because to me, that is so incredibly important. I've. Hi. I've hired people. I looked at resume and then I talked to them.

Tim Newman [00:37:10]:
I said, wait a second, there's something's not adding up here.

Amy Adler [00:37:16]:
Okay. Foundationally. And I don't know if this is exactly what you're saying to start, but this has to be part of the conversation. Foundationally. The responsibility for being truthful is on the job seeker.

Tim Newman [00:37:30]:
Right.

Amy Adler [00:37:30]:
I, I can't tell if they're telling the truth. I mean, I sometimes I can guess. It's only happened maybe once or twice. And I've been suspicious. If it's something I can corroborate by just looking at, you know, what's publicly available in the news, I'm going to do that. I want to make sure. And I'm going to ask those questions like, well, it looks like the company went bankrupt in 2012. What happened after that? Something like that.

Amy Adler [00:37:55]:
You know, you didn't mention it, but you were obviously in doing A, B and C during that time. What do we have to say? And if they don't talk about it, maybe there's a reason. And if it's just not relevant, maybe there's a reason. So that's, that's foundational to, to every project and like to the point where it's like, in my terms and conditions, like, you have to tell me the truth. And my obligation on the flip side is I'm not going to make anything up. I'm not going to fabricate. But let's say that's. If that's a given, that's already taken care of.

Amy Adler [00:38:26]:
So then if that's not the mismatch that you're talking about. I have written resumes for people who, for whom English is not their first language, but their skills are phenomenal and their expertise is really good. I'm thinking of, I want to say he was an accountant or a finance guy in a company. I forget exactly what he did. I think it was accounting. But he had grown up and gotten his education somewhere else. Didn't make his expertise any less powerful. But writing in English just wasn't a strength.

Amy Adler [00:39:01]:
So he wasn't probably going to sound in person, the way his resume sounded, but his expertise. It was so clear that he could talk about every single point. But there's other situations, and maybe this is where you were going. And I think that's, by the way, a very legitimate way.

Tim Newman [00:39:17]:
Yeah, absolutely.

Amy Adler [00:39:18]:
To engage a resume writer to say, tell my story, because I need to talk to an audience and going to be better at this in my language skills. You know, this is my second or third language. You know, this is your first. But I think in the sense that people use specific language in their way of speaking and in their industries particularly, I have to be able to take that and say, this is what I think you're trying to say here. And please correct me if I'm wrong. So writing a resume is not this. It's not like you're writing something in blood and it's immutable or. Or that I can't take it.

Amy Adler [00:39:58]:
I've been writing and editing for over 30 years. This is professionally speaking. So if I can't take being edited, I'm in the wrong industry. And I do believe in the power of collaboration. And if somebody says we would never use such and such phrase, we only use the acronym, I think I might stand my ground and say, let's spell it out once and then use the acronym throughout. It makes more sense. That's how people are going to know it. Whatever the thing is, or we never call it, I don't know, whatever it is, we never call it this.

Amy Adler [00:40:28]:
We. We use this phrase because this is the way our industry thinks about this. Great. Educate me. Tell me how you want this. And hopefully by this point I would have gotten the message. But even if it's in the very last round, I am all ears. And I want people to tell me what they think and to work with me to make this thing, this document, the best thing it can be and the most compelling story it can tell.

Amy Adler [00:40:51]:
So there's no fences that I'm putting up or there's no sense of being insulted about how I'm conveying what I'm putting on paper. I want people. It's very hard to put me down. And I think the only way anybody could possibly, you know, offer that kind of. Of insult is to say, I don't like this, but I don't know why, and you're not fixing it. And, well, none of this is actually. Well, people can say they don't like it. There's no part of me that wouldn't jump right in, drop everything and fix something.

Amy Adler [00:41:29]:
Usually it's something else. It's not, I don't like this. It's. I don't understand.

Tim Newman [00:41:34]:
Right.

Amy Adler [00:41:34]:
Or am I really that good? I get that a lot. But it's never, you know, Amy made something up about me and I don't understand why. So I'm really here to engage over and over again, loop back until it's so buttoned up and so tight that it's, it's a powerful message and the person feels very, very comfortable sending it out to the world.

Tim Newman [00:42:06]:
Yeah, I just think that the congruence is so important because again, when we hire people, at least in my view, we're not hiring a resume. We're not hiring. We're hiring a person that we're bringing into our team. And like you said, that we're hiring somebody because of who they are and what skills that they bring and the knowledge that they bring and the, and you know, who they are to make our team, our organization, better. Right. And if there's not that congruence, they're not. It's just not going to work because we're going to. The expectations won't align one way or the other.

Tim Newman [00:42:55]:
So I just think it's so important for, for job seekers to make sure that you're as authentic as you possibly can be in everything that comes out of you so that it's really obvious.

Amy Adler [00:43:12]:
And that enthusiasm comes through too. All those things.

Tim Newman [00:43:16]:
Exactly. So that kind of leads me to another point. I've spent almost my entire adult career, you know, in higher education. What is it that, what is it that higher education and career centers are. I think they're missing the boat, but I can't really put my finger on it because I don't think we're preparing students in higher ed to truly be ready with, to career ready with their, with their resume, writing, interview skills, that type of thing. What can they be doing differently to better prepare our students?

Amy Adler [00:44:06]:
This is such a multifaceted question. And to be fair, I mean, I've seen what I've seen. I haven't been in higher education for low these many years myself, but having worked with students, I think the biggest change, and if I, you know, if I could wave a magic wand and say all career centers should offer this, I think to get away from the notion that all resumes, especially for young kids, in this context, all resumes have to be one page, like with no context, that's fitting everybody into the same box and not everybody fits in the same box. And not everybody, even senior level people, not everybody needs a resume that is two pages or sometimes three. I once wrote a resume for a guy 25 years in the same company. It was a one page resume because they had one job for 25 years. It was totally fine. But I've written resumes for future college kids, College kids, people get kids getting their first jobs and they've done so much, they're so engaged that their resumes are two pages.

Tim Newman [00:45:19]:
Yeah.

Amy Adler [00:45:20]:
And you know what? That was two pages of concrete information. Right. Real stuff about these, these exciting or excited, you know, young minds ready to do the next thing. And forcing them to one page would have been completely unfair.

Tim Newman [00:45:37]:
Right.

Amy Adler [00:45:38]:
So let them tell their story. Let them tell their story in a way that a more elevated or older professional might tell their story to you because that's where they're trying to go. And to say with all of their documentation, oh, all I've done is go to college. It does them such a disservice. It does, because they have volunteerism, they have work study, they have summer jobs, they have internships, they have volunteer stuff abroad. They, they learn languages, they program in the projects, on the computer, in their classes, they developed consulting projects. All kinds of things have happened.

Tim Newman [00:46:21]:
Yeah.

Amy Adler [00:46:23]:
So why not let them tell us? Me as a resume writer, But I mean, like us as adults, as, you know, professionals, Let them tell us what they're good at and why we should listen to them.

Tim Newman [00:46:37]:
I'm so glad that you said that because I've been saying for a few years that, you know, the generation, the younger generation, I don't even know what we're calling it these days, but the younger generation is, to me, they're so much smarter and so much more entrepreneurial than they've ever been, and they just don't know how to encapsulate that and communicate it. And like you said, trying to force, when I'm trying to get them to open up and share about who they are, trying to force all that into one page, to me it's counterintuitive. So I'm so glad that you said that.

Amy Adler [00:47:17]:
I think what I find frustrating. Thank you. First of all, thank you for saying so. What I find frustrating is this sort of conventional wisdom that nobody has time to read two pages. And I don't think, I hope that's not true because the people who are reading the resumes are probably owning two page or maybe three page resumes. Right. So it's, it's somewhat hypocritical and, and I don't even, but I don't even know if it's true. I, I think if the, the stories in the resume, whatever they are, are compelling and the presentation is clean and easy to read and we're not going to, you know, nine point type because nobody needs to see that.

Tim Newman [00:47:55]:
I won't be able to read it. I wouldn't be able to read it. Honestly, no. Just.

Amy Adler [00:47:58]:
No, no, no. But why not add, you know, how we say it, like, add some air to the document. Like, space things out, make it readable, make the type a little bit bigger. Give your, meet your audience where they are, what do they need to know about you and to constrain, well, anybody into one page. It's an interesting exercise in conciseness, but I don't know if it's anything else besides that.

Tim Newman [00:48:28]:
Yeah, I agree. And you know, it just leads me to the next thought in my head. You know, you and I have spent our entire adult careers helping people. That's what we do, right? That's, that's when you break it down to the, to the bottom level. That's what we do. We, we, we, we help people. We try and add value to people. What's the hardest part in your mind of helping people? Especially when it comes, you know, to people being stubborn or not being coachable.

Tim Newman [00:49:06]:
What's, what's the hardest, what's the hardest part for you?

Amy Adler [00:49:12]:
That people come sort of pre, like primed with fear. They are terrified. And rightly so, especially in this economy. People are getting laid off left, right and center. They are often in unexpected and painful ways. They have families and rent and car payments and food bills, electricity, like really that foundational. I don't know what the, the going figure is. You know, most people are like two or three paychecks away from homelessness, right? And people come in legitimately, absolutely terrified.

Amy Adler [00:49:53]:
And that is the hardest part to break through because what seems very normal to me, like, I do this every day, kind of like what I was saying before, you know, every day, all know, multiple times a week. This is my domain. I feel very comfortable here. Most people don't do this but two, three, four times in their lives and they have no idea what the right thing to do is. And there's so much in the way of bad advice and scam artists out there who haven't done the training and are just looking to make a quick buck. That's not what this is. This is resume writing just for people who are listening. Resume writing is a practice that is closely held by many, many people who do the training, who do the work, learn every day to do right by their clients.

Amy Adler [00:50:44]:
And we're not here to take advantage of anybody. So if we can get people to understand that we are on their side, that we're here, completely devoted to them, and if you trust that we will care for you and your story and tell it the way you deserve to have it told, maybe that will take some of that edge off. Maybe that will help you not have such a stranglehold on it. Even though I know you're out there terrified.

Tim Newman [00:51:15]:
Yeah.

Amy Adler [00:51:15]:
And. And understand our promise. My promise that whatever you need, I will help you. And. And my phone is always on. And I promise that to people because I never want them to feel alone. Because this is weird. I mean, if I ever dropped in their job tomorrow with no context or experience, I'd be terrified too.

Tim Newman [00:51:34]:
Right. Right.

Amy Adler [00:51:36]:
But let me be. Let me be that support structure that's.

Tim Newman [00:51:41]:
So powerful to understand, especially when you're in a place of vulnerability, you may still be in a position, but it's not a good position, or you may not have a position and you're really vulnerable because, like you said, you could be a month away from being homeless. And the stress and the pressure, it's incredible. I mean, I've been there. I know what it's like. And you want to make sure that you're. You think that you can control everything to get you where you need to be, but you need to let some of that control go, because there are people out there who can help you get to where you want to be if you just allow it to happen.

Amy Adler [00:52:28]:
And people who are. Who don't believe they are successful until you, the job seeker, is successful. So it might be kind of a. An unusual way of looking at the logic, but we're not just here to, you know, churn out words and hopefully come out okay.

Tim Newman [00:52:48]:
Right.

Amy Adler [00:52:48]:
We're here to help in. In such a way that we intern. I don't. I don't know a single resume writer who doesn't feel this way. We internalize the success of our clients. And if. If that's not happening, we're going to bend over backwards.

Tim Newman [00:53:01]:
Yeah.

Amy Adler [00:53:02]:
In a way that, as much as hiring teams are full of amazing people, because some of them are my clients. Right. I know that they've hired plenty of people. And recruiters also have an incredible skill set that I promise you, I don't claim to have. Everybody has different obligations.

Tim Newman [00:53:18]:
Right.

Amy Adler [00:53:19]:
The hiring teams have obligations to their groups or the companies, and the recruiters have obligations to their contractual arrangements with the companies. My obligation is to my job seeker. To my client, I don't. I like to say I don't care what job you want until you tell me what you want, and then I'm 110% in. And I will follow you to the ends of the earth to help you get there, because my obligation is to you. And I want you to be happy and successful and fulfilled. And when it goes absolutely bang on according to plan, it's phenomenal. You know, just this last week, I guess it was five days ago, six days ago.

Amy Adler [00:53:57]:
Now finish an update for a former client. And she was like, I found this amazing job. I have to apply for it. Can we do this? You know, yesterday I was like, all right, you know, let's. Let's rearrange my schedule and see what I can do. She had the interview in four days. Five days.

Tim Newman [00:54:13]:
That's awesome.

Amy Adler [00:54:14]:
Hasn't happened yet, so I don't know. I don't know how it went, but. Because it won't take place for a couple more days. But that is the, like, a crystallization of how this is supposed to go. Will it happen every time? No. Have I seen it before this week? Absolutely. I think in the mean, people put the work in, they understand their brand, they know what they're standing for, they apply for jobs that they think they'd be amazing at, and they go. And they nail it.

Tim Newman [00:54:42]:
Well, Amy, that's awesome. I think that's a perfect way to end it. Thank you so much for spending some time with us. Where can people connect with you to get their resumes and written communications done?

Amy Adler [00:54:55]:
Thank you. So I'm on LinkedIn all the time and my handle is amyladler. Also, you can find my website, which is fivestrengths.com that's F I V E S T R e n g t-s.com and if you're interested in a complimentary, completely complimentary review of your Resume or your LinkedIn profile, feel free to pick a time to chat with [email protected]. Let's chat.

Tim Newman [00:55:24]:
Amy, thank you so much for joining us. You've provided so much valuable information and taught me so much in this. In this time, and I can't thank you enough for that. And so take care and we'll talk to you soon.

Amy Adler [00:55:36]:
Thank you so much.

Tim Newman [00:55:39]:
Be sure to visit speakingwithconfidencepodcast.com to get your free eBook, the Top 21 Challenges for Public Speakers and How to Overcome Them. You can also register for the Formula for Public Speaking course. Always remember, your voice has a power change, reward we'll talk to you next time.

Amy Adler [00:55:54]:
Take care.