How to Win Over Any Audience: Lessons in Stage Confidence and Storytelling from Magician Tom Elliott

Tim Newman [00:00:00]:
Welcome back to Speaking With Confidence, the podcast that helps you build the soft skills that lead to real results. Communication, storytelling, public speaking, and showing up with confidence in every conversation that counts. I'm Tim Newman, a recovering college professor turned communication coach, and I'm thrilled to guide you on your journey to becoming a powerful communicator. Today's guest is Tom Elliott. He brings a truly unique blend of entertainment and expertise to the world of communication. Tom is a corporate event host and comedy magician who has performed across the United Kingdom, capturing audiences that didn't always come to see him and learning exactly how to win them over. Now, Tom takes those same skills, stage presence, confidence and storytelling, and helps entrepreneurs and professionals step into their own spotlight.

Tim Newman [00:00:55]:
He's passionate about showing people how to internalize, not memorize, how to grab attention in Those critical first 30 seconds, and how to bring authenticity to every stage or conversation. Tom, welcome to the show. I'm really looking forward to talking to you today because you've got some skills that, number one that I love and that I'm not very good at. So talking to people that have. That is fun for me. So welcome.

Tom Elliott [00:01:21]:
No, Tim, it's my absolute pleasure. Thanks for. Thanks for having me.

Tim Newman [00:01:26]:
You know, you've got, like I said, you've got skills that. Not that I. That I love, that, you know, I can't do, but you also have a unique story. What was the first thing that kind of drew you into magic and performance?

Tom Elliott [00:01:39]:
Sure. So it started really when I was. I was early teenage years, really. A friend of mine was doing some magic at school. School, like card tricks. And at the same time, slightly weirdly, I'd started learning ventriloquism. Right. It's not something I do anymore, but I haven't done it since then, really.

Tom Elliott [00:02:02]:
But I was learning at that point, just out of interest, and we teamed up. We became really good friends because we both connected on this kind of performing idea. And so we became really good friends and we started doing children's parties all around, kind of Gloucestershire, where I live here in the UK, and we weren't very good. We charged 30 pounds. I'm not sure what that. What that is in dollars, but it's not a lot. Anyway, we charged 30 quid for a. An hour's kids party and we split it between us, so it wasn't most profitable of enterprises, but it was a lot of fun.

Tom Elliott [00:02:38]:
To be honest, it probably wasn't even worth the £30 at the time. We weren't that good, but we had a lot of fun. And it taught me a lot in those. Like doing a children's party is definitely a good way to learn the skills of how to manage a distracted crowd in particular.

Tim Newman [00:02:57]:
Yeah, I'm sure.

Tom Elliott [00:02:59]:
So.

Tim Newman [00:03:01]:
But I'm sure that, you know, they loved whatever it was that you were doing. So, you know, it's also kind of, you know, what lands and what doesn't and herding cats and laughing and that sort of thing too. So kind of learn, learn how to work the room.

Tom Elliott [00:03:16]:
Absolutely, yeah. We did everything from. Do you have brownies and cubs and guides and that sort of thing in the States? I'm not sure if you have them, but we did a brownie camp which effectively a ton of girls at the time and it was chaos. Balloons everywhere with two kind of 16 year olds trying to hold attention. It was chaos. But we learned a lot and you know, it sharpened us up. I still think that I couldn't do what I do today, doing corporate stuff at corporate events if I didn't have those early experiences of kids parties.

Tim Newman [00:03:52]:
Yes. So how did that happen? How did you go from that and comedy magician and the coaching worlds and the corporate. Corporate worlds all come together because to me this is, this is what really makes what you do really unique.

Tom Elliott [00:04:10]:
Sure. So I mean, opportunities just grew, really. So it started doing kids parties and then I got invited to do some other things that were kind of mix of adults and children. And then there came a point at which I decided I don't really want to be doing children's parties anymore. And that's why I decided to push the more kind of adult family orientated shows of doing holiday parks. I did some churches, I did do all sorts of things really. And then just as, as I grew as a performer and in what I did, other opportunities came. And then in the last few years kind of specializing, kind of going all in on the corporate.

Tom Elliott [00:04:51]:
I've tried the comedy club. Very different vibe to the kids party and the holiday part. Holiday parks are interesting though because, because again, people aren't there to see you. They've come for a holiday, they've come to have a drink, some chips. And the worst thing of all about Holiday park is that you follow three hours of bingo dancing, Billy the Bear, whatever it is, their mascot, dancing around. And then you're expected to come on and hold the crowd at 9 o' clock at night when it's five hours past the kids bedtime. And yeah, it's chaos.

Tim Newman [00:05:29]:
So what did you learn about the holiday park? Because again, to me it's so fascinating and interesting because like you said, the parents have run around and they've got the kids past the bedtime. I know what kids are like when they're cranky and it's past bedtime. What did you learn and how did you manage that?

Tom Elliott [00:05:47]:
Yeah, I mean, so the big thing really is learning how to capture attention. So very much it was how, how do I start my show there. There are certain routines in my show that just don't work in a Holiday park environment because they're built for, they're built for an engaged audience. If I'm trying to create some sort of atmosphere, unless it's the chaotic sort of atmosphere, then it, it's not going to work. So I found straight away that a Holiday park needs to be short, choppy, fast paced, high energy. Go, go, go, go, go the whole way through. You can't build any sort of arc of atmosphere in a Holiday park show, whereas in a theater you can. So I, I was trying to do.

Tom Elliott [00:06:37]:
One of my favorite comics over here in the UK is a guy called Joe Pasquale and he's kind of ridiculous sense of humor, like really silly in his ST style. But one thing I love about Joe is that you'd be laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh. And then towards the end of his show, about 40 minutes in, which is strategic because about 40 minutes in is when an audience starts to kind of dip in their engagement, right. He changes things up and he creates this like soft atmosphere. He has like piano music in the background and he's still telling jokes, he still making people laugh, but in a slightly, almost atmospheric way. And it was so clever because it built like an arc into the show in the high energy, fast paced, big laughs, big laughs. And then all of a sudden he's telling a mock story which isn't big laughs but it's chuckles and it's funny and there's piano music in the background and. And then he'll finish big again.

Tom Elliott [00:07:32]:
But it creates an atmosphere. You can't do that in a Holiday park. I tried to emulate it and in the Holiday park it just failed. In fact, I remember a heckle of a probably slightly drunk dad in the room going, get on with it, Tom. Because it got boring in a Holiday Park. It doesn't, it doesn't work in that setting.

Tim Newman [00:07:51]:
Right, so, so how long is the set in the Holly Park?

Tom Elliott [00:07:54]:
So 45 minutes, which is. Oh my God, when, wow. At 9 o' clock at night when you've got families and there's. And you've got the game machines. Gambling machines in the background and the pool cues going off and the bar being like, it's a horrible gig, but it taught me a lot.

Tim Newman [00:08:17]:
That's amazing. So when you did regular stand up, to me, comedians are, to me, some of the best communicators and storytellers because that's really all they're doing. And they're telling it in a way to get a response, a laugh response out of you. But, you know, they also really do kind of practice the same way we teach people to practice. But, you know, what did you learn from doing standup?

Tom Elliott [00:08:48]:
I think with standup you learn, well, two things. You learn to. Well, not everybody, but 90% of comedians would. I would say you learn to be yourself on stage, but in a funny and engaging way.

Tim Newman [00:09:06]:
Right.

Tom Elliott [00:09:06]:
There are, obviously there are character acts which make a lot of sense and in some ways everybody's got a stage Persona. But what I, what I've tried to do is be myself on stage, but turned up 10%. So I can go into more detail in that in a minute. The second one is you learn how to read a room. You learn very quickly how to adapt to what that audience work. The only way you learn comedy is by failure in public. And you have to learn to be happy. Failing in public and dying miserable death on stage in front of everybody.

Tom Elliott [00:09:41]:
And so the, you have to go through that and what you, you learn to adapt kind of on the fly or you look like in the moment. You learn to sense what an or where an audience is behind you and where it's backing off and you learn to adapt accordingly. And you think, ah, if I engage with that group, they'll, they'll come towards me. But actually there comes a point which I need to ignore the chaos over here because it's disruptive and, or they're, they're egging it on too much or. So you learn. Yeah, you learn to adapt in the room.

Tim Newman [00:10:18]:
You know, it's. It again, it's. It, it's funny because, you know, you could do, let's just say you've got a 30 minute set first 10 minutes you could do great. And then five minutes in, you could say something that's not funny and you lose the audience and you still got, you know, 15 more minutes left that.

Tom Elliott [00:10:34]:
You got to get back.

Tim Newman [00:10:35]:
You got to get them back as quickly as you can. Otherwise that's, that's a long, that's long 15 minutes.

Tom Elliott [00:10:41]:
Absolutely. So I always think that the, the energy you bring to an audience is the energy that they give back to You. And so I'm, I'm quite high energy in, in the way that I present on stage. I'm quite a positive kind of cheerful in, in my approach. So I've been introduced before, though, by a managing director who's completely the opposite and it, and it's a bit of a nightmare when that happens. In fact, now I have my own voiceover to bring me on because when you get a. Yes, a low energy person introducing a high. The audience were completely.

Tom Elliott [00:11:18]:
It was a corporate event. Everybody's chatting, I'm stood in the wing, he's reading through three pages of a scripted welcome speech and a kind of monotone voice and I'm there going, oh, oh, my days. And because I had to run on from there and completely check. But of course the audience were already lost, they were already chatting away. Right now, thankfully, with a bit of years of experience, it doesn't faze me. I went on stage with my energy, I did what I needed to do and the audience were with me within a few minutes, within a few seconds even. But, but it's hard because you, you have to, you only know that and you can only do it by experiencing the, the, the death of being right.

Tim Newman [00:12:04]:
And, you know, tell me if I'm wrong here, you know that's really no different than standing up on stage and giving a keynote, right?

Tom Elliott [00:12:15]:
No, not at all.

Tim Newman [00:12:15]:
Because, you know, because. Yeah, go ahead, Tom.

Tom Elliott [00:12:21]:
Sorry. If anything, giving a keynote is slightly harder because at least with comedy you've got a audible reaction and a visible reaction from the audience that whether you've succeeded or whether you failed, as in, did they laugh? Yes. Great, it's gone well. Did they not? When you're giving a keynote, you haven't always got that same level of clarity as to what the audience is thinking can be quite. Particularly in a kind of formal keynote. And if you tell a funny story, then great, you've got that instant reaction. But if you're going in straight with a, with, with a kind of teaching mentality, you. It's very hard for people to know whether that audience is fully engaged or not.

Tom Elliott [00:13:06]:
So there are ways of doing it. But I'd say some ways it's harder giving a keynote because you haven't got that instant recognition of what you're doing.

Tim Newman [00:13:18]:
Yeah. And just kind of how I think about the coach I'm working with right now, we're working on me giving him three minute stories.

Tom Elliott [00:13:27]:
Right.

Tim Newman [00:13:28]:
Just three minute stories that I could input. You know, a keynote here, you know, presentation of your. Whatever it is. And I sent him1 about two weeks ago that I thought was hilarious because I use self deprecating humor, I use myself as the punchline and those types of things. And he's British. And he sent it back to me, he said, Tim, this doesn't make any sense.

Tom Elliott [00:13:52]:
Interesting.

Tim Newman [00:13:52]:
I was like, wow. Yeah, I was like, wow, that's bizarre. You don't know about this. And it got me thinking because when you're doing a keynote or you're doing a presentation, you don't truly know everybody that's in there. But if somebody of his stature doesn't understand what I'm talking about, more likely than not the audience isn't going to know. And I've got to redo or rethink either the story or, or the terminology or is this, just get rid of that story altogether.

Tom Elliott [00:14:24]:
Yeah. But you'll only ever know that by giving it a shot. And the odd thing about it is that you can do that one night and it can go down a storm, you can do it the next night and it dies completely. The old British comedian Ken Dodd. Do you, do you remember, do you, do you know or remember Ken Dodd?

Tim Newman [00:14:50]:
No.

Tom Elliott [00:14:51]:
No. So, but he, he used to keep a, what he called a giggle map and he used to map where his jokes and he, he's known for going on for hours. He, he used to do theaters and they'd go on for three or four hours over the, the time given because he just end just endless jokes and he was known for it and, but he, he'd keep a giggle map and he'd literally make note of where each of his jokes. He was a bit of a one liner kind of guy where each of his jokes worked and where they didn't. So he'd know that in up the north end of the country he'd know that these jokes work, but these don't. And down south you'd know that these jokes work, but these don't. And he was, and it's, yeah, it's known that he kept that map of all of his material and where it worked and where it didn't. Because you're right, people from different backgrounds, different places in the country or even in the world understand differently and don't get references that perhaps you're familiar with.

Tim Newman [00:15:50]:
That's brilliant. The giggle map I started, it's a Google map. But for laughing. It's genius though. But, but that's what you have to do sometimes. Again, you know, we talk about knowing your audience, how important knowing your audience is, and that's that's really the. Should be the sole focus of whatever it is. Whether it's just.

Tim Newman [00:16:17]:
Whether it's stand up, whether it's a Holiday park, whether it's a corporate event, whether it's a keynote, whether it's a team meet, doesn't really matter where it is. That audience should be the number one.

Tom Elliott [00:16:25]:
Focus of everything that you're doing and saying yeah 100%. A corporate audience is very different to a Holiday park audience. A corporate the. And here's the big factor that I find makes a lot of difference is has an audience come to see you or have they come for another reason that their motive for coming to the event changes the game. I've got, I know a couple of people here that are kind of celebrity well known comedians and they, and they've said that it, in some ways it gets easier when you're a well known comedian because people have come, they've paid good money because they know that they like you and your sense of humor. So in some ways it's easier. You've got nothing to prove. Whereas a new person or someone that's not known, someone that doesn't have a big profile or, or if they're doing an event where the audience don't know who they are, you're almost having to win that audience over every time that you do an event.

Tom Elliott [00:17:25]:
But the, the flip side of that is that when a well known comedian tries new material they don't really know if it works or not because they're going to get a laugh anyway because that new audience that, so that audience that knows them will find them funny whatever they say. And so it can be, it can be a false flag for them because it can make them think that a joke works and then they take it to a, a new audience somewhere and realize oh, it didn't work. So a lot of them in the UK turn up at comedy clubs unannounced just so they form to an audience doesn't necessarily know them and their comedy because they get a more realistic reaction then to the new jokes.

Tim Newman [00:18:12]:
And that's again that goes back to practice practicing your craft because you. Communication, public speaking is a craft, you have to do it, you have to practice it, you have to do those types of things. And I love that whole idea of showing up unexpected and trying new things just to see if it works.

Tom Elliott [00:18:32]:
Yeah, and trying new things. I was challenged. There's a guy here called Milton Jones who's a well known comic and he challenged me, he said Tom, try and get 10% of new material in every event that you do. Because he said the, the, the, the very fact that you're forcing yourself to create new material and put new stuff out there and, and step outside your comfort zone and just give, I know, 10 minutes of a show of the, of material that you've not done before and you're not sure how it's going to go will stretch you beyond what you need. So you, you're constantly on edge and you're constantly thinking, how can I make this better? And I'm willing to fail as well.

Tim Newman [00:19:15]:
Right? Talk a little bit about that. That whole idea of willing to fail again, I love that whole idea. The idea that willing to fail, you have to put yourself out there and be willing for it to not work. That's awesome.

Tom Elliott [00:19:28]:
Sure. There are ways of doing it. So first of all, mindset wise, you have to be comfortable with, I have to go and do this. The only way to figure out if this is going to be good is to go and do it. And I always say to myself that I know for sure, pretty much 99% sure, that the first version of an idea will never work, but I have to do it before the good ideas come. And it's a painful reality because you're there generating this first idea and in the moment you're thinking, oh, that worked, that'll work. And then you take it to stage. But 99% of the time, what you thought would work in that first idea never works.

Tom Elliott [00:20:10]:
It normally gets chucked. And so it's an interesting one because you think it's going to work, but then you also know that it's probably not going to work because it's the first time, it's the first idea, it's the third or fourth idea that comes that works, maybe even the 10th idea, 11th idea. But you'll never get there unless you go through that first idea. And so you have to keep pushing through this idea of being kind of forced to fail in public. The way I do it, there's two ways I do it. Number one, there are, there are really important gigs and there are gigs that I can get away with failing a little bit more than, as in, I don't really want to fail at a corporate event. They've paid good money for me to be there. It's probably not the space for me to be trying new stuff.

Tom Elliott [00:20:57]:
But if I, if I do the odd, I don't know, it might be a comedy club. There's not a lot of pressure on me to succeed.

Tim Newman [00:21:04]:
Right.

Tom Elliott [00:21:04]:
It's good to do, but there's not loads of pressure. So I can try stuff. The other way of doing it, if you do want to try new material in a high stakes environment, is to try and sandwich the new piece in between two solid pieces that you know work well. And it's a little bit trickier for a keynote speaker to do this because obviously you're taking the audience on a journey. But for me, what that looks like is I've got two tricks that I know work really well and I've got a new trick that I've never done before with new jokes I've never done before. What I'll do is I'll stick that new piece in between these two solid pieces. So that means that if all goes wrong, if it all goes wrong, I can pull the audience back. I can build them up here, I can then dip in this bit if it doesn't go very well, but then I can win them back in this piece here.

Tom Elliott [00:22:00]:
And so I've. That's enabled me to try the new material and almost with a minimal viable product type approach.

Tim Newman [00:22:07]:
Right.

Tom Elliott [00:22:08]:
Don't make, don't do 10 minutes of new material. Do a 2 minute version of it and then expand it gradually.

Tim Newman [00:22:15]:
Yeah. And I like, like the whole idea of if it's not working, you can pull out and move on to something that you know is going to work. You know almost immediately that that's again, that's another, another great strategy because the.

Tom Elliott [00:22:30]:
Audience won't then remember the bit that failed. They'll only remember the bits either side.

Tim Newman [00:22:34]:
Right.

Tom Elliott [00:22:34]:
And so the trickier ones, particularly for me and again not so much although the keynote speaker, it would apply to a keynote speaker if you're finish. If you're starting and finishing on a story that you need to land. Right. But the trickiest ones to, to try and, or to try other my opening routine and my finale. Because if, if you mess up the beginning and if you mess up the end, you're going to have a difficult show or.

Tim Newman [00:23:03]:
Right.

Tom Elliott [00:23:04]:
The beginning more than, more so than the end. If you mess up the end, you might still be in with a chance of the audience enjoying the rest of the show. But the beginning particularly is really hard because if you don't get a good, if you don't get off to a good start, you've lost the audience entirely.

Tim Newman [00:23:19]:
Yeah. So let's talk about the beginning and that first 30 seconds that is critical for really doesn't matter what it is, whether it's stand up, whether it's at a team meeting, a keynote doesn't really matter what it is. That first 30 seconds that you, that you start is critical.

Tom Elliott [00:23:38]:
Yeah.

Tim Newman [00:23:40]:
Tell me what you do and how you teach and what you teach people to do in that first 30 seconds.

Tom Elliott [00:23:46]:
Sure. So if you think about what you need to achieve in that first 30 seconds is you want to capture their attention and you want to share something about who you are so that the audience go, I like him. And so the, there's a few things. First of all, the energy that you bring to an audience is the energy they give back to you. So if you are a low energy speaker, as in quite formal or then you need to think really hard about how are you going to capture the audience. There's nothing wrong with that. If that's who you are, then great. But you need to think about, okay, so I'm quite a low energy speaker.

Tom Elliott [00:24:24]:
How am I going to make sure that this audience is captivated by what I do? For me, it's a little bit easier. I'm high energy. So I make sure that my opening piece is big. And so as I said, I have a voiceover that brings me on now and it's designed to a get a laugh before I've come on stage because I want the audience to have that in their minds. This is going to be funny. And then it builds them up to a big, kind of big welcome. I run onto stage and I swallow a balloon. Okay.

Tom Elliott [00:24:58]:
An inflated modeling balloon. And so the reason for that, and I know, I know keynote speakers aren't going to start swallowing balloons at the beginning of the keynote, but hear me out what that does, it does a few things, establishes me as high energy. So the audience is going, oh, like there's something happening in the room. So I, I then run onto stage. I've made them laugh already because the voiceover itself is funny. And then I swallow balloon. It's quite impressive. It looks impressive, it's visually impressive and it's slightly gross.

Tom Elliott [00:25:30]:
Slightly, but, but also it's, it's impressive. It gets a bit of a laugh or it gets reaction at mo at best.

Tim Newman [00:25:38]:
Right.

Tom Elliott [00:25:39]:
What that does, by that point, I've got their attention. If, if that's all I've done, if it all goes downhill from here, I've, I've got their attention those first 30 seconds and they've made that decision whether they like me or not. What this translates like when I teach people to, in particularly in keynote, you want to be thinking about what, what is it about your characteristics, about who you are that you want to, that you want the audience to connect with. So I always say to people, what, what compliments were you given when. About your character. About your character or your characteristics when you were a kid? So people used to say to me, they still do. They, they say, tom, you're quite a kind of cheerful person and you're always. So I remember going to like, having sleepovers with my mates when I was a young person and I'd wake up in the morning and I'd be buzzing and they like, I'd be like, I am now at 7:00 in the morning.

Tom Elliott [00:26:35]:
And they'd be like, Tom, like, how are you so, like, full of life at 7am? And so I've identified that as a bit of a characteristic. I. High energy, quite cheerful, quite optimistic. So I work that in. And so if I was to ask some of your listeners or you, what's the characteristics when you go onto stage, what you want to do is take that characteristic and just turn it up by 10%. And what that enables you to do is it brings all the characteristics that you want that audience to connect with. It brings all those things that people like about you, but it conveys it to the whole audience, which means you've done two things. You've got them to like you, but also you've.

Tom Elliott [00:27:20]:
You've built that rapport you've kept, as in, they've connected in with you, but you're being authentic. You're not trying to be someone else, you're not being this weird stage Persona version of you. You're being yourself, but you've just amplified it for the size of the audience that's there.

Tim Newman [00:27:39]:
Yeah, that's huge. And I think the idea that you take something that, you know is like you said, a characteristic of you that, you know, that people like and using that as opposed to trying to figure out whatever it is for each individual audience. You know, I'm a lot like you. I'm not nearly as high energy as you, but. But yeah, I like, I like to, I like to have fun, right? Whatever, whatever it is that we're doing, we're going to have fun, we're going to laugh and most of the time we're going to have fun and laugh at me. And, and again, that, for me, that, that builds the credibility that, okay, he's okay with whatever it is that he does. Like, you know, when we came on here, I said, if I say it, I say it. It is what it is and we want, right? So, like, for example, I've said my own website wrong, probably A dozen times.

Tim Newman [00:28:32]:
As many times as I've done this podcast, I've said my own website wrong a dozen times. I just kind of laugh it off and fix it. But, you know, it's okay to make those mistakes. It's okay to laugh at yourself. And we're going to have fun doing it and learn and learn. And I think if people could get out of their heads, right. Get out of that mindset of people are judging them or people are thinking about them or I'm afraid to mess up. Well, guess what? You are going to mess up.

Tom Elliott [00:28:56]:
Yeah.

Tim Newman [00:28:56]:
It's gonna absolutely let it go.

Tom Elliott [00:29:01]:
Yeah. Again, it goes that. It goes back, doesn't it, to that willingness to fail. And that if you can be as com. The aim of the game, I think, is that if you can be as comfortable on stage in front of a hundred people as you are when you're talking to family members or friends, right. And you're just having that social conversation, if you can get to that place when where you're 90% as relaxed as you are in a social circumstance, then that's a really good place to be. Obviously, a little bit of nerves, a little bit of heightened awareness is good because it keeps you on form. But ultimately, audiences need to see that confidence in you in order to then engage and listen to what you've got to say.

Tom Elliott [00:29:49]:
That's what stage presence is ultimately.

Tim Newman [00:29:52]:
Yes, you're absolutely right. But let's talk about fail moments, because again, we've all had them. I don't know if I told you this, but I've said before that the very first time I was. Had to speak in front of group people, I threw up. I mean, I literally threw up thinking about that. I mean, it actually happened. And so now then I went on to be. To have a career where I talk in front of people all the time.

Tim Newman [00:30:20]:
So. So having those fail moments, it's just a. It's a blip. It's a moment. It's a what? It's not your life. It's not who you are. It's not your career. It's just.

Tim Newman [00:30:29]:
It's some. Something happened. How about you? What's your biggest fail moment?

Tom Elliott [00:30:34]:
Well, so I've had a few. So. But let me. Let's go back to the Holiday park scenario. A few years ago, I'd. I'd done a season of holiday parks. I don't. I did quite a few of them.

Tom Elliott [00:30:48]:
There was an agent that I've had, and for some reason, it was just. I was the thing at the time. In terms of Holiday Park, I've done quite a few. And I did it all the way through kind of the summer season when Holiday Parks were packed and jammed. They weren't my favorite, but I did them anyway. And as I said, they sharpened me up. They sharpened my act quite a lot. But then I did one.

Tom Elliott [00:31:14]:
So I'd been to this one particular Holiday park, it was a private Holiday park and I'd been to this one about three or four times throughout the whole summer and had reasonable gigs there. I'd adapted at this point and I'd learned to put on a show that worked. And then I had a final booking at that Holiday park that was outside of their summer season. And so I, I turned up in the late September and I had gone from this kind of busy, thriving, loud Holiday park event to what then was in the same, in the very same room that I was before, but about 50 people. Before it was like 200. Now it was about 40, 50 people, most of which were kind of older couples who might own a caravan for their retirement and, and then a very young family with like baby, right? And I turn up nine o' clock at night, barely anybody in the room, the poor old red coat or whatever. The, the guys before me that were on were up doing all the dancing, putting all their energy into it with very little comeback. I.

Tom Elliott [00:32:27]:
So I went on, did my show and I did all the things that in every other gig go down a storm, big laughs. I did all these little gags that I knew worked. I went in with full confidence, I went on with my full high energy, hey moment. Did all the stuff that I knew worked and I tried and tested, didn't get anything. It was like silent response. In fact there were a few like single handed claps and oh my God, you know, that's all. Yeah. And then.

Tom Elliott [00:32:58]:
So it was a 45. I've been contracted for 45 minutes and from the minute I stepped on stage there was no response whatsoever. And this is the one time when the energy you bring in the audience return was not the case. Normally that works. Did not work this time. They sat and they smiled. In my nervousness there were two things I did wrong. I started to speed up and so that 45 minutes was getting.

Tom Elliott [00:33:26]:
I was approaching the end of my show, but it had been, it was nowhere near. So already I'm thinking, oh man, we're only 20 minutes in.

Tim Newman [00:33:35]:
Oh boy.

Tom Elliott [00:33:36]:
And I'm getting towards the end. And then other things happen in that you start. So the one rule of what I do is you never ask for volunteers because nobody's going to volunteer to be a participant on a comedy act. And I started to ask people if they would join me on stage. You can tell I was desperate. And it, they said no. It just spiraled into this awkwardness after awkwardness and I'm thinking I really need to, to get off and I really need to, to wrap this up. Towards the end of the show, I'm just coming towards the end.

Tom Elliott [00:34:09]:
And the young family in front of me got up and left. And of course, because it, because it was quiet, everybody watched as they left the room and their eyes followed his family as they left the venue midway through a show. And then I finished and I went off stage and I went into the dress. I say dressing room. It was a cupboard. I went into the cupboard and I just laughed because I, I've done it before, I've been here before, I failed before, I just laughed. The funny thing about it is I then got into my car and I put a photo on my Facebook, my personal Facebook, and just outlined some of the horror story that had just happened. And it was about a three hour drive home and I arrived home to all these messages from friends going, are you okay? Are you doing okay? Like out of concern for my mental health having, having had this disaster of a gig.

Tom Elliott [00:35:13]:
And I laughed back and I said, yeah, of course I am. I wouldn't be doing this job if I couldn't handle a bad gig at the end of day. I'm not a surgeon. Like, if a common. It's not like a surgery that's gone wrong. Right. Right now you. The.

Tom Elliott [00:35:31]:
I guess the reflection is, could I have done anything in. I don't want to blame my tools. Like, you know, you always take responsibility and own the problem. But in many ways I think it was, it was, the atmosphere was wrong. The atmosphere wasn't right. It was a, it was a big room with very little people in. I tend to find that older audiences don't vocally respond to as much as younger audiences. They still enjoy it quite a lot, but they don't often vocally respond in the same way that a younger audience might.

Tom Elliott [00:36:07]:
The two things I did do wrong, though, as I said, never ask for volunteers if you're going to engage an audience, if you're going to have someone participate on stage in a nice way, force them up. So what I normally do is I go, what's your name? He says, tim. And I go, tim, would you join me for the next part of the show? Ladies and gentlemen, give Tim, a round of applause and Tim will come up on stage. Now, I'm. I'm respectful of my participants. I don't mock them or anything like that. So.

Tim Newman [00:36:32]:
Right.

Tom Elliott [00:36:33]:
That might feel harsh, but what it does is it stops the awkwardness of will you help me? No. Will you help me?

Tim Newman [00:36:40]:
Yes.

Tom Elliott [00:36:40]:
No. Will you help me? No. And then the second error was that I, in my nervousness of it not working, started to speed up and speed up and speed up. The key when things aren't going well and it's completely unnatural to do this, but the key when things are not going well or when you're struggling is actually to slow down.

Tim Newman [00:37:02]:
Slow down.

Tom Elliott [00:37:03]:
Right. Because when you slow down, you portray more confidence. And as you portray more confidence, the audience gets more confident and they start to engage. But of course, it's very unnatural to do that because you're just like, I want to get, I want to get to the end. I want to get to the end, get through it.

Tim Newman [00:37:20]:
Right, exactly. So let me ask you kind of an unrelated question, a little bit off topic, but here in the States, you know, there does seem to be a trend in comedy of doing audience work. You know, is that something that's going on over there with you guys? Because to me, a couple. Okay, it's funny, but again, you need to be careful with things that you're saying and not, you know, putting them down. Obviously, if you're going to comedy show, you know what you're getting, but yeah, you, you just don't know who you're calling on.

Tom Elliott [00:37:52]:
Right, sure. So I love, I love audience work and to be honest, so it depends on your Persona of comedy. If you are a controversial, edgy, aggressive comedian, you're gonna get the sort of audience that will push you to be more edgy and more.

Tim Newman [00:38:16]:
Right.

Tom Elliott [00:38:17]:
Controversial. So you have to be a bit more on your guard if you're that sort of comic. I'm not that sort of comic. I try and be clean and non offensive the whole way through. It gives me more opportunities. Corporate wouldn't. Very rarely would a corporate want anyone that's going to be too political or controversial or whatever. And so I try and make sure that my whole show is effectively family friendly, even if it's not a family audience.

Tom Elliott [00:38:46]:
So I, I love crowd work. But, but it stems from who you are and the sort of person you present to the audience. Just ask your question again, Tim, because I had another point to that, but I'd forgotten the specific question you'd asked.

Tim Newman [00:39:03]:
Oh, the whole idea of, you know, when you go to a comic show as a spectator, you know what you're gonna get. Yeah, but you just don't know if you. As a comic, if you could still offend somebody. I mean, it could still go. It could still go really, really bad. And that could. That could. It could be detrimental to your career at this stage.

Tim Newman [00:39:31]:
You know, if you. If you say the wrong thing or you call out on the wrong person and, you know, it could. To me. To me, the. The negatives far outweigh the positives in some of. Some of the people that are doing that audience work. Some of them, like. I don't want to call out anybody's names, but they're fun.

Tim Newman [00:39:54]:
It's not. There's nothing bad about it. Right. It's. You know, you're just. You're just having fun, but some of it gets pretty. Pretty really edgy.

Tom Elliott [00:40:03]:
Yeah, absolutely. In fact, there's. There's a comedian I'm following on Facebook at the moment, and I am fascinated in that. He is probably as edgy as you can be. I would say, at points verging on full, on kind of even like, racism and things, which I wouldn't. I'm not standing. I'm not excusing or standing up for at all. But it's interesting.

Tom Elliott [00:40:30]:
99.9% of comedians would not get away with that at all in his. This level of this particular guy. But what's interesting is that this guy has a crowd of people that should be offended by what he's saying about them, but they're not. They're loving it. They are absolutely thriving off it now. I don't know. I cannot tell you how he's managed to get into that space, because the only way that works when being at that level is when you've got an audience that almost wants you to offend them. But that takes years of personal brand work before you can get away with that.

Tom Elliott [00:41:11]:
So it's very tricky. I don't. I don't know how people build these edgy Personas on stage, because it's a. It's a very. Particularly in the world we live in at the moment, which is becoming quite sensitive to those things. Right. And. And that circle of sensitivity is getting wider and wider.

Tom Elliott [00:41:28]:
So it's very tricky. But. So I think it's safe. I. I find it safer for my own career, but it's all. Is it. I'm not an edgy person anyway. I don't mean to.

Tim Newman [00:41:42]:
No, it's. It's. It's who you are. Right.

Tom Elliott [00:41:43]:
It's who I am, because I'm not really that sort of person. So I'd never get over there anyway. It would be out of character for me.

Tim Newman [00:41:49]:
But so, again, I don't want to get too far afield on that. It's just fascinating to me because I, I, I like comedy, obviously, but, but I also learn a lot from it, too. Right. You know. Yeah. Whether it's stage president, whether it's, whether, whether it's the timing, watching it, I learn a lot from it. And let's, let's get, let's get back to what we're really talking about. Talk a little bit about the difference between internalizing the message and memorizing the message and how important that is in the delivery of the overall, you know, keynote presentation, set, whatever it is that we're going to be talking about.

Tom Elliott [00:42:29]:
Yeah. So this one, I think, is a game changer if you are either just starting out in your public speaking journey or whether you're someone that would benefit from public speaking in terms of your own business or a message that you have, or charitable thing, if public speaking would be an opportunity for you. But you're thinking, I'm too nervous about standing on stage and speaking in front of people. This is a bit of a game changer. A lot of people, when they give a speech or when they're doing anything upfront, they will write a script, and they will try and learn that script word for word, as if it's some sort of theater play. Now, there's nothing wrong with writing a script at the beginning. The problem is, is that if you then become reliant on that script, you're learning it word for word. The problem is what happens when in the heat of the moment on stage, because I think you'll know this, Tim, your mind operates in a different way when you're on stage.

Tom Elliott [00:43:33]:
There's a, it's like an, it's like when you've just had too much coffee. Like, there's a, there's an energy in your head and you're, and it's spinning in a million different ways, and it's like a nerve. Not a nervousness necessarily, but a kind of a, an energy that you can't shift. And what that does sometimes is it can throw your thinking. If you're not in control of it, particularly if you're new and you're, and you're feeling nervous, it can throw you completely. So what happens then when you're working your way through this script and then you stumble across a line or you suddenly Realize you've forgotten something and it completely throws you. And then you haven't got notes, so. Oh, and then you get into mess and then you start telling a story that wasn't meant to be till later on.

Tom Elliott [00:44:16]:
And then of a sudden, you're in an absolute mess. And the worst case scenario is that the whole thing doesn't make any sense and the audience is confused, you've lost the audience, you look nervous and you've just had a meltdown. You then come off stage, you feel rubbish, the audience doesn't know what to say. I'm exaggerating a little bit, but you know, you know the feeling, right?

Tim Newman [00:44:34]:
I. I do. I mean, because it's.

Tom Elliott [00:44:37]:
It.

Tim Newman [00:44:37]:
It happens. I mean, it happened. I wouldn't. It happens all the time, right? To. To people, even seasoned speakers, even seasoned people that have been doing it for a long time, that they get paid a lot of money to do it, understand that they go through presentations and keynotes and these things that don't land, they messed up. And whatever it is, it doesn't have to be a first timer or somebody that's new. It happens along the whole spectrum.

Tom Elliott [00:45:06]:
Yeah, absolutely. So I always say don't, by all means, write a script to begin with. Because writing a script is helpful for clarifying exactly what you want to say and particularly with some topics, depending on what you're speaking on. Language is really important. The language you use to talk about something is, is key and in some cases is a matter of whether you offend or don't offend. Like if politicians, for example, have to be mindful of language because what they say has an impact to some extent.

Tim Newman [00:45:38]:
Right?

Tom Elliott [00:45:39]:
And people will hear that differently and respond to that differently and react. So you have to. It is worthwhile writing a script purely for the basis of thinking through exactly what you're talking about and what you want to communicate. But from that point, you want to start to get rid of the script. And I talk about internalize, don't memorize. Because if you then memorize that script and you run the risk of forgetting it and get into a mess, what you want to do is go from a script down to some phrases, down to some bullet points, down to some words, down to nothing. Because we haven't scripted this conversation. If we did, it would sound very robotic and weird.

Tom Elliott [00:46:25]:
What we're doing is we're having a conversation about something that both of us know a lot about and we've experienced a lot of. In the same way, if you're giving a keynote, you. You don't want to sound robotic. You want to, you want to come across as if you have. Have experience in whatever you're talking about. You're. You're telling a life story. It's no different to standing in front of a group of friends.

Tom Elliott [00:46:47]:
I'm not sure if it was earlier on this podcast or whether it was on the podcast I did before this one that I said that, that the, the pinnacle of where you want to get to really on stage presence. It was this podcast is being in a space where you are completely okay and completely natural, talking to a group of 100 people or a thousand people as you are talking to your family last night at dinner. And you're just relaying this experience that you have or this knowledge that you've learned in a way that's very natural. It's not scripted, but, but neither is it not not thought through. You've, you've. You've got the structure, you know where you're going, you know the kind of elements of your talk, but it's coming across very natural rather than. Right. Scripted.

Tim Newman [00:47:39]:
Yeah.

Tom Elliott [00:47:39]:
Because in a way, if you forget something, wait, you, you haven't even forgotten anything. You're just talking about what you know. Well, and so it just. That comes from the heart, comes from inside of you, rather than. There's nothing to forget.

Tim Newman [00:47:52]:
Right, right. As. As again, as long as you've done the work, done the practice, done all those things. And, and that's, that's the other piece that really does go along with that. And I like what you said. Go from, from the, from the script to sentences, to bullets, to. To phrases, to nothing. That doesn't just happen.

Tim Newman [00:48:09]:
It happens because you put the work in, you put the practice in, and, and those types of things. And, you know, that's exactly kind of how I do it. Right. So the first time I'm doing something, like I told you, I'm working with a coach, I script it out word for word, and I have my wife look at it because the stories are about me or the family, so she knows them. And she starts changing it, changing words, because she says it's not grammatically correct. It's not supposed to be grammatically correct. It's coming from me. I want it to sound like I'm talking.

Tim Newman [00:48:38]:
Right, Right. And that frustrates her. But then when I deliver it the first couple times, it's really kind of unemotional because I just want to kind of get through the words. And then once I start to get it, then start getting, you know, putting the emotions and the facial expressions and all those other things to it. But you have to, like you said, get to the heart. What is it that you're trying to say? And then work it out so that it actually sounds like you want it to sound.

Tom Elliott [00:49:08]:
To sound. And, And I would say it's easier to adjust when it's internalized than it is when it's scripted, because it doesn't, it doesn't have to be exactly the same words in exactly the same order when it's not scripted. And so therefore, if you want to change something, if you want to add in a comment or, or tweak the way you land, you can do that much easier than, oh, let me go back to the script. And then I've. Because you learn it and it's robotic, you run the risk of saying the old version rather than the new. Whereas if it's internalized and. Because what happens is when it works, when that story, when the punchline of that story lands really well, you get the adrenaline kick and you go, oh, that's how I'm going to end it next time. And it's much more natural to end it that way next time because you felt it rather than because you've reworked a bit of script that you'd written.

Tim Newman [00:50:01]:
Exactly, exactly. You know, and again, that. That's one of the other reasons why use stories about me. Because I already know the story.

Tom Elliott [00:50:07]:
Yeah.

Tim Newman [00:50:07]:
I don't. Right. It's, it's, it's the terminology that, that we use or that. That I want to use to make it land. But I already know that because I already knew it was there. I was one. Yeah, it was me. So, you know, you know, but, but again, that, that's what I found when, with, with teaching, coaching people, especially initially, they're.

Tim Newman [00:50:27]:
They're so afraid to use personal stories.

Tom Elliott [00:50:30]:
Yeah. No, if you're a storyteller, by all means, use them, because people, people connect through stories. People.

Tim Newman [00:50:40]:
Yeah.

Tom Elliott [00:50:41]:
You can build. I love speakers that can tell stories that one minute have you crying with laughter and the next minute they have you sobbing in tears. Because they've moved you. Like they've taken you on that whole emotional arc.

Tim Newman [00:50:55]:
Yes.

Tom Elliott [00:50:56]:
And stories have the power of doing that. So particularly if you're, if you're a charity or. Yeah, if you're an impact speaker, as in your. Maybe you're the CEO of a charity or whatever, and you want to, you want to bring people to donations or support or volunteer or whatever it might be, the best thing you can do is tell stories of the impact you're having. Tell stories of celebration of the great things that have happened, but also then lead them to tell stories of, of the challenges that the people that you're working with affects. Because it's that, that will then really connect with people that go, oh, I've got to, I've got to give. I want to see more lives changed in that way. I want to see.

Tim Newman [00:51:35]:
Exactly.

Tom Elliott [00:51:36]:
Whereas without stories of just facts, you don't connect on the same level.

Tim Newman [00:51:41]:
Exactly, exactly. Tom, what's one piece of advice that you would give to somebody who needs to build more confidence in their, in their speaking? You know, because that's, that's the real key. Because you're never going to get better if you don't have confidence.

Tom Elliott [00:51:59]:
Yeah. I would say the more you do it, the better you get. The more you do it, the more comfortable you get with failure. And so I know, I know people that have started their keynote speaking career by literally organizing their own events and it's a, if you can't, if you're not sure about putting yourself out there to speak professionally at other events yet, then organize your own. Get start a networking gathering and you invite yourself to be the main speaker. It's a great way of building your network and starting, but it's a great way of learning your craft of speaking as well. By all means, practice it at home. Get one talk, one keynote, really well prepared, internalized, think through it, think about how it can be creative.

Tom Elliott [00:52:47]:
Think about, keep it short. It doesn't have to be a full 45, 60 minute keynote. It can be a 10 minute, can be a 5 minute, give it a go. And what I would suggest is do the same, the same keynote to 10 different audiences and figure out what works and what doesn't and then slowly begin to build it. Cut out the stuff that didn't work, add some stuff, new stuff to try.

Tim Newman [00:53:14]:
That's awesome advice, I appreciate it. Where can people find you and connect with you and work with you?

Tom Elliott [00:53:20]:
Sure. So if they go to hellotom.co.uk showman, you can download a free resource there. It's basically a blueprint for creating a creative keynote that will engage and help you think about your Persona. It will help you think about internalizing it, help you think about how you build some creativity in there, how you retain the audience starts to get you thinking about all these different ideas and concepts to help you deliver a really good keynote. And then of course, if you're a little bit more established, but you want some coaching in that area, by all means. Get in touch. I'd love to have that conversation with you.

Tim Newman [00:54:02]:
Well, that's awesome. I'll put those links in the show notes. But Tom, thank you so much for spending some time with us today. Can't tell you how much I appreciate it. It's a lot of fun. Really enjoy talking with you.

Tom Elliott [00:54:15]:
And to you, Tim, thank you so much.

Tim Newman [00:54:17]:
Take care and we'll talk to you soon. Be sure to visit speakingwithconfidencepodcast.com to get your free eBook, the Top Top 21 Challenges for Public Speakers and How to Overcome Them. You can also register for the Formula for Public Speaking course. Always remember, your voice has the power to change the world. We'll talk to you next time.

Tom Elliott [00:54:35]:
Take care.