The Art of Saying No: How to Set Boundaries Without the Guilt

Tim Newman [00:00:01]:
Thank you for listening to the speaking with confidence podcast. Give us a review to tell everyone why you love the podcast. You can also download, like, and share the podcast with friends. Be sure to visit form for public speaking dot com and sign up for form for public speaking course. It’s a step by step system to help you become the confident and powerful speaker you’ve always wanted to be. Welcome to Speaking with Confidence. The podcast is here to help you unlock the power of effective public speaking. I’m your host, Tim Newman, and I’m excited to take you on a journey to become a better public speaker.

Tim Newman [00:00:45]:
I really appreciate each and every one of our listeners, and thank you for your support. If each of you could do one thing for me, it it would be to give us a 5 star review and share the podcast with someone close to you who would benefit from listening. Today’s guest, Suzanne go I almost called you Goldberg.

Suzanne Culberg [00:01:02]:
I get that a lot. You can leave it in if you want. I don’t mind.

Tim Newman [00:01:07]:
Alright. So to today’s guest, Suzanne Culberg, is the nope coach. She helps over givers and people pleasers learn to set boundaries and say no without feeling guilty or be a bitch. She has recorded over 400 podcast episodes. She’s also known for her straight talking and wacky t shirts. She lives in Sydney, Australia with her husband and 2 awesome children. Suzanne, welcome to the show. I’ve been looking forward to talking to you for a long time there.

Tim Newman [00:01:33]:
Thanks for joining us. Thank you, Tim. I was just

Suzanne Culberg [00:01:35]:
checking out what shirt I had on for you today. It’s Houston. I have so many problems.

Tim Newman [00:01:39]:
Oh my goodness. That’s all that’s awesome. And and, you know, and we’re and we’re recording this, you know, the day after election day. And, you know, Houston, we do have we got a lot of problems. That’s awesome. But but, again, thanks for joining us. And, you know, right before, we started doing this, my my oldest daughter called me, and I said I’ve got an interview. And she said, well, who are you interviewing? And and I said, to note coach, and she had no idea what I was talking about.

Tim Newman [00:02:07]:
And I told her, and she says she started laughing. She said, that’s really good. So I’ve I’ve already sent her, a link to your website. So if if you get somebody from, you know, Pennsylvania today, yeah, I get I get that referral.

Suzanne Culberg [00:02:24]:
Thank you. Tell us, send me a message. If you go over to the part of my website that says don’t click because it’s for the rebels in the house, you can send me a message. And I do respond to all the messages that come in because I don’t know if it was my pen pal days when I was a kid, but I think we’ve lost the art of actually connecting with people, putting everyone into our funnels, and and doing the type this word and my bot will respond to you. I was like, no. I ain’t got time for that.

Tim Newman [00:02:46]:
Yeah. And and I’m glad I’m glad you said that hit to don’t click because, you know, when I when I first started talking to you, that’s that’s what I told you I did. The very first thing I did when I went to your website, I didn’t hit the start here. I hit the don’t click link. I love it. I love the way it’s set up. Yeah. I I think you and I are are are, you know, pretty compatible with with how we think and how we go about doing things.

Tim Newman [00:03:07]:
So so this is great, but when did you learn or or how did the idea of the note coach start, and how did it turn into this amazing resource for people? Because, you know, say saying no you know, there’s many different reasons why people say no. We don’t, you know, we don’t wanna hurt somebody’s feelings. We want people to like us, so all these other things. So when did you realize that you actually had something that you could could really help people?

Suzanne Culberg [00:03:36]:
It’s actually not as a straightforward story as people would expect. So my original business was weight loss mindset coaching. Now I never cared what people ate or how they exercise because they know what to do. They just don’t do it. So I’ve coached people with getting stuff done that they want to get done. And I originally ended up in the weight loss niche even though I never liked the term, but when SEO, people aren’t looking for mindset help. Maybe now they would be, but, anyway, it’s because I had my own weight journey. I dropped a £171.

Suzanne Culberg [00:04:06]:
So, like, I used to weigh double what I do now. But anyway, I I really felt passionately about body positivity and loving the the skin that you’re in and all this sort of stuff. So I just never sat well with the weight loss as my business. And, eventually, I was like, no. I need to rebrand this. I don’t want to I don’t wanna be associated with this anymore. I if I never have to hear about calories or kilos or pounds or anything again, my life will feel complete. So I hired someone to help me with my, like, messaging in my business, and I had to fill out I don’t know how many forms and paperworks and ideal avatars and all this sort of stuff to try and get to the nuts and bolts of, like, what I what are these that I actually do? And she was like, you really help people advocate for themselves and overcome self doubt.

Suzanne Culberg [00:04:56]:
She’s like, you’re such a yaysayer. And I was like, oh, that makes me wanna die inside. Nope. And she’s like, how about the nope coach? And I was like, oh, that I can get behind. So that’s how it came to be.

Tim Newman [00:05:10]:
And, you know, and and I’ve kinda heard your your story that I’m gonna want you to tell here in a second, but, you know, that’s that’s what we do. We we we just say yes without thinking about it. Right? A lot of times, because because it’s kind of ingrained in in our psyche, you know, for I would say for for most people, it’s ingrained in our psyche for from a relatively young age. May maybe maybe young teenagers, may maybe even before that, but, you know, at least for me, from a teenager age group on. And then we we tell ourselves these stories about why we need to be saying yes to to everything.

Suzanne Culberg [00:05:49]:
Yes. So in terms of, like that’s the business side of my story, but in terms of, you know, you teach what you most need to know so you can know it. Personally, yeah, I was raised and conditioned to be a people pleaser, and I’m sure my parents had the best of intentions. Like, you don’t deliberately often, there are exceptions, like, go out to mock up your kids. But we we teach our kids to be polite, you know, be good girls and good boys, and don’t rock the boat and make people feel good. And that messaging, I I question that because make making people feel good sounds nice on the surface.

Tim Newman [00:06:23]:
But what is not said is making people feel good at the expense of

Suzanne Culberg [00:06:27]:
you. Right. So, you know, if you said, hey, Suzanne. Do you wanna go and, do you wanna go hiking today? And I’m thinking, Tim, gosh. No. I no. But I’m like, oh, Tim’s asked me, and I don’t wanna let him down. And he really likes hiking.

Suzanne Culberg [00:06:41]:
I’ll be like, sure. You know? But instead, I’d be like, if I was honest, I’d love to hang out today, Tim. That sounds great. Hiking’s not really my thing. What else you got? And then you can find something instead of doing all these things that you don’t really want to do

Tim Newman [00:06:58]:
Right.

Suzanne Culberg [00:06:58]:
And not even pausing to ask, do you want to do it? I can think of some of the some of the movies or stage plays or things that I’ve attended that left to my own devices, I just never would have. And sometimes people take this to the extreme, and they’re like, so you’re saying you never do anything you don’t want to. And I’m like, I’ve got a great example. Tomorrow, my son, it’s his assembly piece, so they’re putting on a a a written piece that they’ve all written. He’s in grade 3. So I’m excited to see my son. His 30 seconds of his speech, I’m not excited to see the other 99 of them. Oh, no.

Tim Newman [00:07:32]:
I I understand. Yes. Yeah. But I

Suzanne Culberg [00:07:35]:
won’t be rude. I won’t get up and leave. I won’t whatever. Like, I will attend. So there are times if it’s really important to the other person, I will go. Hands down. But if it’s something like hiking or let’s see a horror movie or something that you could do without me, then I think it’s time that we actually articulate that it’s not for us and let go of the fact that we’re letting the other person down. Because, Tim, if you really wanna go hiking, I’m sure you could ask someone else, not the only person in the world you could hike with.

Tim Newman [00:08:02]:
Right. Why why don’t you go hiking, and then we’ll get together? We’ll have a beer afterwards and and spend some time together like that or, you know, whatever that is, you know, and it but but, again, you’re you’re right. Especially if there’s somebody that we care about, or that’s important to us in some way, whether it’s a personal relationship or business relationship or what have you. You know, we we we we struggle with with saying that no because we don’t wanna let them down or or or for whatever reason. And, again, there are times that you have to do things that you don’t necessarily want to do. I mean, you you know, be because you just that’s part of life. You have to do things sometimes that you don’t wanna do. That’s part of being being an adult and being a grown up at point at some points, but, you know, being able to, decide what those are for yourself and make those decisions for yourself is is really a learned skill.

Suzanne Culberg [00:08:52]:
Yes. Yes. And also but to be able to communicate. Like, thank you. I appreciate this. I I love the things I get invited to. I appreciate that someone thought of me. Mhmm.

Suzanne Culberg [00:09:02]:
But it’s a no for me. A no to the activity, but not a no to them or no judgment on what they like to do instead.

Tim Newman [00:09:09]:
Right.

Suzanne Culberg [00:09:10]:
And I think that’s the thing. It’s it’s healthy to have that ability to separate the no from a a judgment of you as a person or the activity that you’re undertaking because, you know, like, it’s funny you said have a beer afterwards. I’m a teetotaler. Always have been. Fascinates people. They’re like, are you religious? Are you this? I’m like, no. I just I’ve always let my calories through food, so I never got into drinking. Okay.

Suzanne Culberg [00:09:31]:
But sometimes people will get so affronted, and they’re like, what does your husband think? And I’m like, he loves having a permanent designated driver. There

Tim Newman [00:09:38]:
you go. Well, that’s you know, that’s great. Again, it’s it’s whatever you you you’ve you’ve developed that skill to do what you wanna do without worrying about what other people necessarily think, which again is is on a whole another level some of that self talk that we have, you know, talked ourselves into.

Suzanne Culberg [00:10:01]:
Yes. And, also, the stories we make it mean, sometimes people are just genuinely curious or they’re like, you know, they’re they’d be like, so how do you fun have fun without alcohol? Like, it passed me, it would be like, you know, but sometimes they they don’t. I’m like, man, I’m loose lipped sober. I don’t even wanna think about what I potentially say drunk.

Tim Newman [00:10:24]:
But that’s a good thing. Better not better not have any of this for sure then.

Suzanne Culberg [00:10:29]:
But then again, that being said, I don’t know if it would be that big of a deal because I literally just say whatever comes into my head. People find it really quite affronting, but, and other people find it really refreshing because I’ll be like, you know, someone says, do you wanna do this? Oh, hell no. I love that you love it, but it’s a no from me. Yeah.

Tim Newman [00:10:46]:
Yeah. But I I find it really, really refreshing because, you know, most people are are couching their words. They’re they’re couching what they say, couching what they think because, again, they’re so afraid of upsetting somebody or or hurting their feelings or feeling bad about themselves or for any of the other number number of reasons. You know, for for me, most people that know me know I’m just gonna say pretty much whatever I I think anyway because I I don’t have time to play games or, you know, or it’s not that I’m trying to necessarily hurt your feelings. And if I say something, I’m not it’s not my never my intent, but I just don’t have time to play the those I I call it games, but but you you know what I’m talking about.

Suzanne Culberg [00:11:26]:
It is. It’s mind games, and then you’ve gotta keep track of your story. Like, one of my biggest things and I used to do this. Say you invited me to an event, and I didn’t wanna go. I couldn’t say no because I felt rude or I didn’t wanna let you down or whatever. So I’d say, yeah. Sure, Tim. That’s great.

Suzanne Culberg [00:11:39]:
And then on the day

Tim Newman [00:11:42]:
Oh, I’m sorry. I can’t come.

Suzanne Culberg [00:11:44]:
And now that we have mobile phones and direct messages, it’s so much easier. You don’t even need to ring the person. You just send them a message. And to me, in all honesty, it is so much ruder to say yes when you have no intention of going. It’s especially if it’s an event that they’ve had to cater for you or it’s something, you know, that your presence we missed, then if you were just honest at the at the front end and the other thing that happens is, say, you invite me to I always use Tupperware parties as an example. It’s more of a women’s thing. I don’t know what the men’s equivalent would be, but, you know, you have a bunch of people around your house and you sell them some MLM stuff. If I say, oh, no.

Suzanne Culberg [00:12:20]:
Next time. But I don’t mean it because I don’t actually wanna go. Next time you host 1, you’re gonna invite me again. Oh, no. Next time. That gets to a number of next times where the person second guesses, maybe Suzanne doesn’t like me. Like, how many times is she gonna say next time? So they stop inviting you when Suzanne actually loves you, but she doesn’t like Tupperware. Like, she’s got no time for plastic.

Suzanne Culberg [00:12:40]:
So if I just said, thanks for inviting me to you. You know? I don’t do Tupperware. But if you had a candle party, I’ll be there and probably your biggest spender because, like, I love candles. You know? But I just think there’s something about saying next time when you really don’t mean it.

Tim Newman [00:12:55]:
Exactly. And, you know, for for me, one of the biggest ones for me is if my wife wants to go out somewhere or we’re meeting some people, and she said, why why don’t you come home? You know, do a couple of things, and then we’ll go. And I said, you know the deal. If I go home, I’m not going anywhere. So if if you want me to go, I’ll go, but I’m not going home because if I’m home. Forget it. It’s it’s not happening. You know? But

Suzanne Culberg [00:13:23]:
But it’s funny.

Tim Newman [00:13:24]:
You know, you have to you have to you have to actually say that it’s not that I don’t wanna go. It’s just if I if I do this, then the

Suzanne Culberg [00:13:31]:
other is not happening. I’m exactly the same. Once I’ve gone home, I’m not leaving again. Or, also, phrase the question. Like, my kids know if they ask, would you like to, I will be a 100% honest with them. No. I don’t like to, but I will depending on what it is. Like, can you take me to my friend’s place? You got a new puppy.

Suzanne Culberg [00:13:48]:
It’s like, no. I don’t wanna drive you over there, but I will. So it’s instead, will you? And then recently, they stayed with my sister. I was home alone. I had a staycation. Thank you. Shout out if you’re listening to this. You’re the best sister ever.

Suzanne Culberg [00:14:00]:
And, she was like, would you like to help me garden? And they both said no. And then she rang me, and she’s like, you’re kids. And I’m like, no. No. You don’t say, would you like to? You say, will you? That’s a different question.

Tim Newman [00:14:11]:
Exactly. It’s a very it’s a very different question. And and that goes into listening too. Right? Because from a communication perspective, if we’re as individuals, we’re not good listeners. And if we actually listen to what’s being asked and respond to what’s being asked, that that that’s a very that like you said, that’s very different than just, you know, responding to what you think somebody else said or or given an answer that you think somebody actually wants. You’re actually listening to what’s what’s being said. You think about your response to that, and then you answer intelligently.

Suzanne Culberg [00:14:45]:
Yeah. And I think that’s the other thing too. Sometimes we another people pleasing hack or trick is you do something and and play into people’s sense of reciprocity. So sometimes people will send me a message and go, love your podcast. I gave you a 5 star review. I shared it on socials. Now I’m gonna be a guest. Like, they you know, it’s just I I find that really bizarre because I have a process to become a guest on my show.

Suzanne Culberg [00:15:11]:
You’re most welcome to it, but you announcing that you’ve done all these things and now here’s what I’m gonna do in return, there was never any discussion here. It was just like an assumed thing, and it’s amazing how often people do that. Like, I shared all your stuff. Now here’s this thing I have coming up. And I’m like, is this in alignment with my brand? Do I even know who you are? Is this of interest to me? I I just find it amazing how often people don’t actually front end it with, hi, Suzanne. Like, when you and I got chatting, you said, I’ve been to your website. I love the don’t click. We had this thing.

Suzanne Culberg [00:15:41]:
It takes a few moments. But when you connect with the person genuinely

Tim Newman [00:15:45]:
Yes.

Suzanne Culberg [00:15:45]:
Rather than just assuming, it it makes all the difference. Because some podcasts, not mine, and I know not yours, but they only take on guests who have worked with them. So if you, like, approach them or whatever, they’re like, no. You need or some podcast charge. Like, you have to come on the show. It costs this much. Like, there’s a process. But so many times in life, there’s an assumptive thing.

Suzanne Culberg [00:16:06]:
Like, I scratched your back. Now you scratch mine. It’s like, but did I even want my back scratched?

Tim Newman [00:16:11]:
Yeah. You just started you you started touching me. I didn’t even ask you to be touched.

Suzanne Culberg [00:16:16]:
Exactly. Yeah. And also too, like, you shared it up. Like, that that’s a it’s one of the my most annoyed messages I get when people say, I shared this. Now can you share mine? And I’m thinking, I don’t know you. I don’t know what your stuff is about. I’m very choosy. Like, I love to share freely if I know the person.

Tim Newman [00:16:32]:
Right.

Suzanne Culberg [00:16:33]:
But, you know, if you’re selling Kagan alkalized water, and I’m just like, water’s water, man,

Tim Newman [00:16:40]:
I’m not gonna share it. You know what I mean? Well, well, go go back to to what we just talked about. If somebody asks you to to share a beer brand, you’re not gonna share the beer brand because you don’t drink beer. You don’t know. It that doesn’t Exactly. That doesn’t make any sense. And and if and if somebody takes any any bit of time to get get to know you, they’re gonna know that that endorsement or or that sharing, it it’s crap. It doesn’t mean anything.

Tim Newman [00:17:04]:
It’s not it’s not helpful.

Suzanne Culberg [00:17:05]:
Of no value to you. I don’t have drinkers in my audience. Well, I might do, but you know?

Tim Newman [00:17:11]:
So, I mean, it’s that that’s the other the other piece of it. You know, when when you this is a little bit of far field, but but you are a brand in and of itself. Right? I mean, you you you’ve you’ve you’ve built a brand. You are a brand. And if you start doing things that are off brand, you’ve actually diminished your your value and your your business value. And and peep people I’m sure people realize that maybe they they just don’t think about it and because they wouldn’t do it. Right? If they they they wouldn’t do it for themselves, but they expect other people to do it for them with without, you know, that that process that that vetting process.

Suzanne Culberg [00:17:53]:
Yeah. I think that’s such an important thing. So recently on my own podcast, I started allowing pre and post roll ads that are prerecorded. So not ones that I endorsed, but ones that are just added. Right. And there’s a series of categories that you can turn on and off, and I turned off gambling, politics, religion, like the things that, you know, I don’t mind how much that’s paying me. It’s not associated with my message, and I don’t really want because when you put something in front of your thing, as you said, if if I’m, like, advertising Jim Bean or Johnny Walker or whatever, and I don’t drink at all, it’s it sends a confusing message to people.

Tim Newman [00:18:28]:
Mhmm. It really does. It it it it and and then how are they gonna gonna trust what you’re saying when when the message is that actually matter? Right?

Suzanne Culberg [00:18:37]:
100%. Yeah.

Tim Newman [00:18:40]:
And and by the way, I I do like the the kind of the change that you did with your with your podcast with with some of the, just you talking. I listened to to some of those just the other day.

Suzanne Culberg [00:18:54]:
Oh, so what I’ve done now

Tim Newman [00:18:56]:
Yeah.

Suzanne Culberg [00:18:56]:
Is originally, my podcast was half and half. It was half solo, like me just talking and half guest. Now my podcast and I coach is fully guest, and then my solo ramblings are on Patreon. So Patreon is a platform which I’m falling in love with because it gives people an RSS feed so they can get the link and put it into which wherever they listen, Spotify, Apple, whatever. And, then I have a real separation in my brand. So if you want my interviews, this is where you go. If you want my solo stuff, this is where you go. Mostly, it’s paid.

Suzanne Culberg [00:19:28]:
It’s, like, $10 a month, so it’s not a huge amount, for the solo stuff. But there is a couple of just one offs here and there.

Tim Newman [00:19:34]:
And and and, again, I I love that because you’re you’re you’re giving, you know, your your your followers, your your listeners, you know, the people that are whatever you wanna call them. I mean, each platform calls them different things. You’re giving them different ways to to to consume different types of content from you, which which is great. So Yeah.

Suzanne Culberg [00:19:53]:
And I think that’s something it it evolves over time. It evolves over time. So in the beginning, I had just, you know, my podcast, and then I really realized how much I liked interviews. And I also write a newsletter, and I I’m I’m a prolific content creator. I read something. I have thoughts. I write. And then I was like, oh, I think I’m kinda exhausting my newsletter list.

Suzanne Culberg [00:20:13]:
No one’s ever complained, but, you know so Patreon gives me the freedom and flexibility to write, talk, sing badly. But share, and then people have definitely selected in because they’re paying the, you know, the $10 a month, and then interact and comment on those posts in a non public way. Like, if you if you comment on my YouTube or my Instagram reels or whatever, your mom, your sister, your next door neighbor, especially when we talk about boundaries and saying no in difficult things, whereas in the Patreon, only other Patreon members are gonna see it. So you can be a little bit more, direct, which is, you know, what I love.

Tim Newman [00:20:47]:
Right. Exactly. Exactly. So so so when did you realize that, you had a problem saying no and you weren’t being a a good friend, and that made you a doormat. You know, I I I’ve I’ve heard you tell the story, and I and I think I think it’s a a really powerful story that people need to hear because we all I don’t know. We don’t all do it, but but people that have trouble saying no find themselves in these positions all the time.

Suzanne Culberg [00:21:15]:
Yeah. Well, when I I’ll I’ll share this story now, and I know you’ve heard it before. But the first time I shared it, I felt so awkward. And I was in a, like, a a group Zoom meeting, and you see everyone’s heads in bubbles. And there honestly wasn’t a dry eye in the house. And I was so confused. And I said to my biz friend who was there, like, I thought I’d be the only person on Earth who had this particular thing happen. And she’s like, yeah.

Suzanne Culberg [00:21:38]:
But the essence of what happened is what people connect with. And I think, you know, we we have different situations, but how it plays out is is universal. So, basically, I was I had my oldest child. I didn’t have my second kid yet, and she was just under a year old. And I went to mom’s group. A lot of people you meet up once a week, with other moms with babies and fabulous. And I met this other mom, and she didn’t have a car. And I’d see her at the supermarket with her trolley or stroller pram, depending where you are in the world, hanging all her grocery bags to it and pushing it to the bus stop and trying to navigate the the the baby and this pram and the groceries.

Suzanne Culberg [00:22:19]:
And I was like, I felt so bad for her. So I said, hey. Would you like me to pick you up and take you to the supermarket once a week? We go at a similar time. It’s no worries. That’d be I don’t mind. And that’s being generous. I think sometimes people pleasers, we don’t identify as people pleasers. We’re just generous.

Suzanne Culberg [00:22:37]:
That is an act of generosity.

Tim Newman [00:22:39]:
Mhmm.

Suzanne Culberg [00:22:39]:
And she said, yep. That’d be great. So I meet her once a week. I drive to her house. She put her son’s car seat in next to my daughter. We go to the supermarket. We buy our groceries. She’d leave her bags undone.

Suzanne Culberg [00:22:49]:
I’d tie mines when we opened the boot where you guys would say the trunk. We could easily tell who’s is who’s without having to get all the groceries out. It was great. Did that for a couple weeks, maybe even a month or more. And then a couple of times, she’d run out of stuff in the middle of the week, and she’d give me a call to send me a text. Suzanne, can you take me to get nappies? Suzanne, can you run me to the pharmacy? I gotta pick up a script. And even then, almost still generous because it was once a week or so, and I could have said no. And that’s the thing too.

Suzanne Culberg [00:23:18]:
Sometimes we don’t even think. I was like, yeah. Sure. And I felt so I felt so bad for her. No car. We called ourselves the orphans as a joke because we all lived away from our family interstate. We weren’t actually orphans, but there was a group of us who had no parents, no family support, no grandparents. It’s tough with babies.

Tim Newman [00:23:35]:
Right. Mhmm.

Suzanne Culberg [00:23:36]:
And so I did that, and then it became every other day. And then it pretty much became every day. And then it was things like, hey. My in laws are visiting. Can you pick them up from the airport? And you might think, oh, it’s not so bad. The airport was over an hour from my house, and never once did she offer fuel, gas, petrol money. Also, never did I ask. But, yo, I went to the airport, and then she was having her kids’ first birthday party.

Suzanne Culberg [00:24:02]:
And she said, can you can I borrow some, cutlery, crockery plates? We’re having it at the park. Do you mind helping me set up? And then I’m going to hang out with my in laws. Can you take the stuff home and wash it? Like, in hindsight now, I can see my god. What was I doing? And in the moment, little seeds of resentment came. I was like, what am I doing? But not enough to ever speak up. And then one day, we were at one of these moms group meetups again, and we’re they had, like, the the public bathrooms. And I was in one of the stalls, and she was at the sink with another mom who said to her, hey. I’ve got this something rather on this event.

Suzanne Culberg [00:24:38]:
Would you like to come? And then she’s like, hang on. I just remember you don’t have a car. Don’t worry about it. And she’s like, oh, no. Suzanne will take me. She’s my little bitch. And I overheard this in the stall. And I just remember I felt like I’d been hit.

Suzanne Culberg [00:24:52]:
Like, it was like a like a whack to the face, and that saying the truth hurts. Like, that was it was ex it was a guttural experience of that because it did hurt. I felt hit. I felt, like, the rash of despair, and I felt like, my god. She doesn’t does she even like me, or am I just literally her little bitch? And then someone has asked since who’s heard this story. They’re like, you know, did you ever confront her about that? And I’m like, oh, I’d like to say, you know, if if this conversation happened today, there’d be a whole different situation. But I did ask her about it in the weeks to come, and she just laughed it off as it was a joke. And I think sometimes when our feelings are hurt and we’re trying to genuinely communicate, like, this is how I feel, and people are like, oh, I didn’t mean it was a joke.

Suzanne Culberg [00:25:39]:
Like, isn’t that the very thing of gaslighting? No. It’s not it’s not dark.

Tim Newman [00:25:42]:
Exactly.

Suzanne Culberg [00:25:42]:
But, you know, sometimes people don’t hear us or they wanna downplay or they want don’t wanna dismiss it. Now when people do that to me, because it still happens sometimes, I’ll be like, well, I’m sorry, Tim. I didn’t find that funny. I wouldn’t even say I’m sorry. I’m like, that’s not a joke to me. This is how I feel. And if people really just don’t want to acknowledge and have these difficult conversations, they’re not people I wanna continue to have in my life.

Tim Newman [00:26:03]:
Mhmm. And when I heard that story the for the first time, my wife was in earshot of the speaker, and she gasped. And she said, what did I just hear? I said, yeah. You heard it right, and she actually came over and listened to the whole story again. And, you know, we we had a a conversation about that

Suzanne Culberg [00:26:26]:
because

Tim Newman [00:26:30]:
because, you know, we we get into the whole idea that, yes, we kind of like what you and I just talked about briefly. There’s things that we do for people that we care about, and we we take each other for granted. You know, there’s people that we care about on a regular basis, and sometimes, you know, we feel that that that same way. Oh, he’ll just do it or she’ll just do it. I don’t even have to worry about just send her text, oh, I need you to do this or I need you to do that without thinking about it. And, you know, that that actually started a conversation with with the 2 of us, you know, being a little bit more thoughtful about how we go about, you know, asking each other to do things that we could either easily do ourselves or do in our own time frame what what have you as opposed to just relying on somebody else to do that for us. So that that really did start a a a a good conversation.

Suzanne Culberg [00:27:24]:
It’s such a conversation starter. So, like, my my daughter now is nearly 12, and she’s a competitive cheerleader. And her competitions, like, I pay for the classes. I pay for the costume. I drive her out every week. I pick her up. I help her train. Like, I do all this sort of stuff.

Suzanne Culberg [00:27:40]:
And then when there’s the competitions on, I pay for the seat, and then I sit there for 3 to 5 hours watching all these routines for my kids’ 3 minutes. And I’m often sweating. And then when she doesn’t win, she gets in this total funk and is impossible to talk to. And I said to her at the last competition, if this happens again, I will not attend. And she’s like, you have to. You’re my mom. Whatever. I’m like, I don’t have to.

Suzanne Culberg [00:28:02]:
I can drop you off, and I can pick you up. But this is my entire day where I’m sitting in a loud, crowded, sweaty hall. Like, I don’t have to do this. And she was horrified, and she actually has her next competition, in 2 days from now. And I’m like, if this experience isn’t different, like, I’m you’re allowed to be upset that you didn’t win.

Tim Newman [00:28:21]:
You’re

Suzanne Culberg [00:28:22]:
allowed to be frustrated. You’re allowed to talk about all it is. But if you sit there, like, and go on and on and on, like, this is not a great experience for me, I’m not available for this. I’m not your virtual mental punching bag for when things don’t go well. Right. And I just her whole thing was like, that never occurred to me. And now this next competition is right next door to where Coldplay is gonna be playing, so I can’t get a park. So I was like, I can’t prebook the parking.

Suzanne Culberg [00:28:47]:
I’m like, I don’t even know how we’re gonna get there. But then I just found out that Coldplay has a courtesy bus. I was like, let’s just hop on you and your cheer uniform. Nobody will know.

Tim Newman [00:28:54]:
No. No. No. So we just had a free trip out there. But I

Suzanne Culberg [00:28:57]:
think, you know, people don’t realize the things that parents, friends, caretakers, neighbors put themselves through to be able to attend these things for you, and then you just take it for granted. And I was like, yeah. I love watching you cheer. I don’t love watching the other 90 teams cheer. Right.

Tim Newman [00:29:12]:
Right. It’s it’s it’s not don’t even get me into cheer because that’s I I’ve got I’ve got trauma from that, for for for my kids. You know, just a quick story. You brought it up. So my my old starter played field hockey, and they went on a on a trip to Disney World. And in Disney World in Florida, they’ve got, the Y World Sports. So they do all kinds of travel competitions, this, that, and the other thing there. So my daughter went with her team, and my wife and I went down separately.

Tim Newman [00:29:45]:
And we we get there, and that’s why World of Sports at this time that they were also doing a cheer competition. And so so we’re oh my god. There’s, like, 45 year old girls and doing cheer, and that that’s great. Awesome. But the parents, we’re not going anywhere till you put makeup on and curl your hair. I’m saying, this girl is 4 years old. I was like, phew. I said, no.

Tim Newman [00:30:08]:
I’m not doing that. And then my youngest daughter ended up getting into into cheerleading, and and that was god bless her. That was that was so much fun. That was so

Suzanne Culberg [00:30:17]:
I don’t do the makeup. I I made sure she joined a team that wasn’t required. It’s only optional. And I’ll do the high hair because they have to, like, the spray. Mhmm. But, I I chose a team that doesn’t have the braids. Because this one teen that does this little I’m like, I have to pay someone. There’s no way I could do the hair like that.

Suzanne Culberg [00:30:32]:
Getting my kids’ hair on top of their head is hard enough. But funny you used to say field hockey because in Australia, we have hockey and ice hockey. And I love how you guys have hockey and field hockey. Yeah.

Tim Newman [00:30:42]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Suzanne Culberg [00:30:42]:
Yeah. First time I had this conversation, because I was like, I’d heard I was like, what is field hockey? And then someone said, like, so you mean like hockey? And I’m like, yeah. That’s what we call it. I’m like, what do you guys call hockey? And they described it like, oh, that’s ice hockey.

Tim Newman [00:30:55]:
Yeah. Yeah. And so so and at least with us, it’s guys don’t play field hockey at all. It’s it’s all

Suzanne Culberg [00:31:04]:
Really? Female.

Tim Newman [00:31:05]:
It’s all female. I mean, there there are there

Suzanne Culberg [00:31:07]:
are some there are very,

Tim Newman [00:31:08]:
very few there are very, very few male. It’s it’s it’s a almost exclusively female.

Suzanne Culberg [00:31:15]:
Maybe that’s why Australia always wins gold because we don’t have to get it against America. It’s like

Tim Newman [00:31:21]:
no. You know, it’s I don’t know. But yeah. And and you

Suzanne Culberg [00:31:25]:
My sister was a was a really good hockey player. That’s which whichever hockey it is, that sport is fierce. Like, seriously.

Tim Newman [00:31:33]:
It is. And it’s when they’re young, it’s like watching grass grow, though. It’s almost like like softball. My my again, god bless them. I I love them to death. Love them dearly. But watching, you know, 7, 8 year old girls play base, play softball, oh, gosh. You you you do your parent duties and and love them and and cheer more and coach them up and and all those types of things, but my god.

Tim Newman [00:32:07]:
You know, it’s it’s it just is what it is. You just gotta do what you gotta do that, you know, thank thank god thank god they didn’t play softball. I don’t want them to play softball for very long. They got into lacrosse, which was for for me, the Oh, lacrosse. Lacrosse. I love lacrosse. You know what I mean?

Suzanne Culberg [00:32:23]:
My daughter plays, just cheerleading, obviously, but she also plays AFL, Aussie Rules Football. Oh. So it cracks me up because I’ve got

Tim Newman [00:32:30]:
the I’m

Suzanne Culberg [00:32:30]:
like, you can let her do the whole thing. You could run out at halftime and do your cheer, run back in. But, she plays on the the the mixed team too. So not not just women’s or girls, as you call it. She plays the mixed, and, I’ve never seen somebody so rough and humble. And she’ll get this giant bruise, and she’ll be like, yeah. And I’ll be like

Tim Newman [00:32:49]:
Good for her. That’s awesome. I mean, that’s I I I love it. I I played rugby for a while, which is which I I know is different than Aussie football, but, the same type of stuff, and and it’s I I love the action. Love the violence. You know? You you it’s it’s controlled violence so you so you can get some of your frustrations out and and have some fun.

Suzanne Culberg [00:33:11]:
Controlled violence. That’s a good way of putting it. Yes.

Tim Newman [00:33:14]:
It is.

Suzanne Culberg [00:33:14]:
Yeah. But I do it’s it also depends on the sport. I’ve never been one for do you guys call soccer do you call it soccer? Like, I think in the UK, they call it football.

Tim Newman [00:33:22]:
Yeah. We got soccer.

Suzanne Culberg [00:33:23]:
Never enjoyed me because it’s so much running around for maybe one goal. I’ve just been like, oh, this is but, AFL, my daughter’s team’s really good. And I haven’t seen the last few games, but they’ve won, like, 5060 to, like, 56.

Tim Newman [00:33:37]:
And I

Suzanne Culberg [00:33:37]:
was like, did the other team even show up? Like, seriously? So, yeah. But she’s just got a a competitive edge like I’ve never seen.

Tim Newman [00:33:46]:
That’s awesome. Yeah. And and I I love for kids to be able to do that that type of stuff. Now, you know, they it’s not a sport that they’ll be able to do when they’re when they’re 30 or 40 or or or 50 like golf, but at at least they’re active. They’re learning skills. They’re making friends. They’re, you know, there those types of types of skills are, that that she’s learned, you know, teamwork, you know, competition, communication, all all those types of things really do bleed bleed over into, you know, normal everyday life, and that’s I I think it’s awesome for kids.

Suzanne Culberg [00:34:19]:
Yeah. A 100%. And I think you’re right. Strategy, competition, communication, all things that are really important. Yeah.

Tim Newman [00:34:26]:
Mhmm. But you said something a little bit ago. You said, sorry. I I don’t, and then you stopped yourself. I’m not sorry. And that’s something that I over I’d say over the last 4 or 5 months, I’ve caught people saying sorry, and I stopped them. I said, now hold on. Are you really sorry, or is that just an excuse? And most time they say, no.

Tim Newman [00:34:45]:
I’m not really sorry. And I said, well, then tell me what you what you actually mean and how you actually feel. Don’t if you’re not sorry, don’t say sorry. Right? And that’s that, again, that’s so important from a communication perspective because, you know, if you’re if you tell me that you’re sorry, that means you’re apologizing to me for something. And if you’ve got nothing to apologize for, then don’t apologize. Say say what what whatever it is. And and from you know, that also alleviates some of the the the stress and and whatever feelings that those people have, from them to get them to understand that you don’t have to worry about that with me.

Suzanne Culberg [00:35:28]:
Yeah. It’s something I was very conditioned to growing up to always say sorry and always apologize, and it’s something I do catch myself. I just caught myself earlier. And, yeah, I’m not sorry. Like, I’m unavailable or I can’t do this or something whatever. So when I do catch it, I do speak up. But I think we’re conditioned to say sorry. And it’s like Mhmm.

Suzanne Culberg [00:35:51]:
But we’re really not.

Tim Newman [00:35:52]:
Right.

Suzanne Culberg [00:35:53]:
And it’s, you know, if we’re truth, or I I’ve said because sometimes people are demanding of an apology. Like, you know, I I want you to apologize, but I’m like, but I’m not sorry. So something I will say, it’s like, I’m sorry you feel that way, which I am. I’m sorry that, you know, we’ve had this disagreement or whatever, but I’m not sorry for what I said or what I did because that would be a lie. Mhmm. And I think sometimes, you know, it’s it’s interesting. People will demand recompense or apology depending on the situation. So I had an example recently.

Suzanne Culberg [00:36:26]:
My husband and I, we have one car. Mostly works because we live in the city. We’re 1 hour from the Harbour Bridge or 3 hours. Sydney Harbour Bridge, depends on traffic. There’s no in between.

Tim Newman [00:36:36]:
Okay.

Suzanne Culberg [00:36:36]:
And he had to go into the city, and I was dropping him at the train station because I needed the car that day. And he said, I’ll be home after 5. I was like, sweet. So I didn’t have to pick the kids up. I had 1 kid home, 1 kid at school, and I was like, I’ll record. So it’s just recording my solo stuff in my own zone. Phone’s off. You and I both checking our phones.

Suzanne Culberg [00:36:55]:
We’re off, like, face down before. Suddenly, my son comes in, and my kids know not to interrupt me unless it’s an actual emergency. So I was like, oh, what’s happened? And he said, you need to call daddy now. And I turned my phone over, and there’s always missed calls and always messages. And my first thought to him was he’s been injured because he works in power. Stuff happens. And I was like, oh my gosh. So I rang him immediately.

Suzanne Culberg [00:37:15]:
He said, where are you?

Tim Newman [00:37:17]:
I was like, pardon? He’s like, I’m at

Suzanne Culberg [00:37:19]:
the train station. I’m like, it’s half past 2. We’d agreed on 5 o’clock. And when I went to pick him up, I said, I’m sorry, and I caught myself. I said, no. I’m not sorry. We agreed after 5 o’clock. And he’s like, I messaged you.

Suzanne Culberg [00:37:34]:
And I’m like, but I didn’t check my phone. Like, you can see if something’s being read or whatever. We had quite a little argument that we then fixed up later. But I said to him, you’re a grown ass adult, mate. You could have caught a taxi or an Uber. You could have walked. It’s not that far. You could have arranged another way to get home when you realized that I wasn’t available.

Suzanne Culberg [00:37:52]:
And I won’t be yelled at because I’m not there. And he apologized. Like, he’s like, yeah. I’m sorry. I I shouldn’t have raised my voice. And he was like, yeah. I’m not sorry. But past me would have felt so bad.

Suzanne Culberg [00:38:03]:
Oh, I should have been checking my phone. I am the worst wife ever. And I said, no. We agreed on after 5. He changed the plan. He didn’t actually yes. He communicated it with me, but it was one-sided. He didn’t get me on the phone or see that I’d responded and said, I’ll be there.

Suzanne Culberg [00:38:16]:
So I wasn’t sorry.

Tim Newman [00:38:18]:
Right. And, you know, I I’m I’m your husband at at times. You know, if in those types of situations, I’m your husband. Like, I tried to call you. You didn’t answer your phone, so it’s your fault. Right? And my wife calls me on that all the time. She said, no. It’s not my fault because, again, just like you said, I didn’t answer.

Tim Newman [00:38:42]:
I didn’t see the the voice mail. I didn’t see a text message. I didn’t see any of that stuff. We agreed on what whatever we agreed on. And just because you changed the plan doesn’t mean that I’ve gotta drop everything that I’m doing. And so those types of conversations and and back and forth are are, I think, are universal everywhere. You know? So and my my wife is the one that does a lot of, you know, the the real changing of the plan. So let’s just say, like, today.

Tim Newman [00:39:11]:
We we only have one car as well. And so I’ve got to got this interview, and you need to to pick me up as soon as I’m done because we have to get to the store that actually closes an hour later. So we don’t have a whole lot of time, because for whatever reason. And so if she’s not here, she’ll say, well, I decided to do something else to set her up. I think so. Well, we we’ve decided that we really have to do this today. If it’s not done today, you know, we won’t be able to do it till next week. What whatever.

Tim Newman [00:39:39]:
But those types of things happen, and, you know, I kinda chalk up to it’s our dance. You know, these are the things that that we do to each other, inadvertently, and then as we get caught doing it, I mean, okay. I’m sorry. We I I’m sorry I did that, and I’m not gonna make it your fault. That’s that’s the other little piece is acknowledging it and not making it somebody else’s fault, owning owning that what whatever that situation is.

Suzanne Culberg [00:40:06]:
Yeah. And I I have my own times where I expect him to be a mind reader. Like, I’ll just, like I’ll say, it’ll come out of my mouth. I’ll be like, listen to what I mean, not what I say. And then everyone, the kids, everyone will start laughing, and I’ll be like, oh. But, you know, we do expect because you we have this whole thing going on in our heads. Like, you meet in the morning, and you’re like, we’re gonna do this this afternoon. But then something else happens for them and something else happens for you, and you just kind of assume.

Suzanne Culberg [00:40:31]:
So it happens on both ends. But in this example, it was one where I I caught myself. I was apologizing. So what am I apologizing for? Right. No. I said after 5. It’s not after 5. I understand it’s hot and you’re frustrated, but, you know, you could have got home in another way.

Tim Newman [00:40:45]:
Exactly. So is is there a is there a difference between not being able to say no in your in somebody’s personal life as opposed to the professional life?

Suzanne Culberg [00:40:58]:
That is an excellent question. Some people, there’s vast difference. Like, some people in the workplace are, like, almost drill sergeant ability to, like, run their team and whatever, and they come home and they’re a total doormat. Some people at home have really great boundaries, but my dad’s one of those. At home, he’s like, exactly right. But in the business, he’d literally give the shirt off his back. Somebody would whatever, and he would just fold. And, yeah, it’s it’s it’s interesting dynamic.

Suzanne Culberg [00:41:29]:
And and some people are just across the board, either the yes person everywhere or the no person everywhere. Mhmm. And I think it’s just an individual thing. But if you are across the board struggle to say no, always find yourself saying yes, where I’d encourage you to start is with people who don’t yet know you. So, like, say you like, I used to be the type I’ll go to the supermarket. Would you like a bag with that? Yes. Would you like a corn cob? Yes. Would you like fries? Yes.

Suzanne Culberg [00:41:53]:
I I didn’t even they didn’t have to finish their sentence. I’d just be like, yes. Yes. Yes. Because I’ve like, I felt so bad. Somebody was asking me for something. And my sister and I went to the states recently, and everywhere people are like, we don’t have tipping, and we don’t have the taxes afterward, and it’s very different culture.

Tim Newman [00:42:12]:
Right.

Suzanne Culberg [00:42:12]:
But the up sell game in the states is a lot stronger than here. And and she was just like she got really frustrated. And I was like, it’s their job to ask. Like, if you buy a corn cob or an extra side of chips of you guys call them fries, I asked for a burger and chips somewhere. I got this burger, and I was like, where are my chips? I said, that was weird. And then I bit into it, and it’s like this crunch. And I was like, they put potato chips on my burger.

Tim Newman [00:42:37]:
That’s because I asked for a burger and chips.

Suzanne Culberg [00:42:39]:
That’s awesome. But the story is it’s their job. Like, so if you say no to somebody in a thing like that, then it it for people who are such people pleasers, to you, it’s like, oh my gosh. But to them, they don’t care.

Tim Newman [00:42:55]:
Right.

Suzanne Culberg [00:42:55]:
So, you know and the people who don’t know a different version of you don’t know any other version of you. So you start to, you know, build that muscle of being able to say no or no thank you. Like, all the you know, the people in the shopping centers, I don’t know if you have them there. They have, like, a stall in the middle, and they’re selling vacation points, or they’re selling gym membership, and then they pretty much, like, attack you, and then you can’t get away from them. It’s like, no. Thanks. Like and keep walking. And they’d be like, yes.

Suzanne Culberg [00:43:21]:
I’m not sucked in to listen to some spiel about whatever it is for an hour. So start there.

Tim Newman [00:43:28]:
And and and so that that kind of leads into how do you do how do you say no to or or or start setting boundaries with people that you’re close with? If you’ve if you’ve been the the yes person for forever and you realize, you know what, I need I I need to make some changes. How do you start making those changes without being, you know, that person, that that that bitch or that that, you know, what the hell is wrong with you? Because, you know, yesterday, you weren’t like this, and 2 weeks ago, you weren’t like this. Now all of a sudden, you’re you’re just telling me no all the time. You’re not you’re not doing this. You’re gonna do whatever you wanna do. How do you start that process?

Suzanne Culberg [00:44:10]:
I think the most important thing is to have a conversation about it first, not just announce. From now on, I decree. I’m gonna do this. Have a conversation. And, also, make sure you have the person’s full attention. So my husband’s a gamer. If he’s playing Xbox, I could say, hey. I wanna go to Paris tomorrow.

Suzanne Culberg [00:44:28]:
He’d be like, oh, okay. Do you know what I mean? He’s not paying me any attention. It’s how I’ve gotten away with getting a few things that I want. You know? But, like, make sure you ask, is this I have something I wanna discuss. And depending on the person, obviously, don’t worry. It’s nothing serious. You don’t have to panic because we’ve had a lot of, illness in the family and stuff. So if I’m like, there’s something I wanna discuss, I can just say, are you sick? So we’re like, you know, this is not there’s nothing untoward, but it’s important to me, and I wanna have a discussion.

Suzanne Culberg [00:44:54]:
Is now a good time? Because sometimes, it’s not a good time. You’ve got your own stuff going on, and then someone’s telling you they’re gonna start setting boundaries, and you’re like, what? So in whatever way works for you, initiate a conversation. Make sure you have their full attention. They’re not reading a book. They’re not scrolling. They’re not playing Xbox. And I always start the conversations with up until now because I wanna acknowledge what’s happened. Up until now, I can give you an example.

Suzanne Culberg [00:45:18]:
My daughter has anxiety. I have anxiety too. And, what was happening is she was coming into my room at, like, 10 o’clock at night as I’m getting ready for bed, and she should have been asleep and unloading what had happened at school that day. And then I I would see it, and I would listen and hold support and whatever, and then I’d get her to sleep. And then I would feel all wired because you’ve just listened to all this. So then I’d need time so that I’m not really getting myself to sleep till 1 o’clock because I gotta I gotta deal with my own emotions after I helped her deal with hers. And I sat down with her, and I said, up until now, when you’ve had these big emotions, that’s what we call them, big feelings Mhmm. And you’ve been coming in late at night as mommy’s getting ready to bed, I’ve been listening to them.

Suzanne Culberg [00:46:01]:
So acknowledge. This is how it’s been happening. From here on out, that can’t happen anymore. And you can depend on whether you wanna tell them why or not. It’s a personal choice, and and who the person is and whether it’s relevant. So, like, for her, I was like, because then I don’t get to bed too much later. And see you know, the whole household. When I don’t get everyone knows when I don’t get sleep, I’m such a bitch.

Suzanne Culberg [00:46:21]:
You know? So, anyway, had this thing. So what I’d like to do, what I’d like to propose instead is that you share this with me after school. Like, I picked them up from school, and I have the period of time. And, anyway, I said, are you open for this? And she was like, yeah. Okay. So after school the next day, I waited. She didn’t say anything. Then the next night, it happened again.

Suzanne Culberg [00:46:44]:
And I was like, honey, we had this conversation. I have to remind because sometimes people are like, I don’t care about me, whatever. They forget. And and, anyway, I was like, I told you I’m not doing this anymore. And her dejected face and whatever, I felt so bad. I felt I’m the worst mom in the world. Like, you know, the the feelings are real that will happen, but, you know, I gotta hold this. Next day after school, I thought, maybe I I should bring it up.

Suzanne Culberg [00:47:07]:
So as we come home from school and I got the snack and everything, I was like, is there anything you wanna talk about? And she said, no. That next night, the same thing. And it took a couple of weeks to get into the routine, but long story short, so I don’t bore you with all details. After school, she wasn’t ready. It was still too fresh. It was still too raw. It wasn’t the right time. Okay.

Suzanne Culberg [00:47:25]:
10 o’clock at night didn’t work for me. After school didn’t work for her. So we found a pattern of, like, just after dinner, you know, about an hour or so to about 7 PM. And for the 1st week or so, so, I had to say to her every day, anything you need to share now? Anything you need to share now? Like, remind her. This is the time, and now she knows because we’ve established this. Because I think sometimes we have a thing in our head. This is how it’s gonna work. Like, ideally for me, 3 o’clock, perfect.

Suzanne Culberg [00:47:49]:
Give me all your problems. Didn’t work for her. 10 o’clock works for her. Doesn’t work for me. See, as you set these boundaries, there’s gonna need to be some negotiation and also sometimes some reminding. And sometimes you will have to let people down. Like, you know, those first few nights, I could hear her in her room, like, upset. And I was like, oh my gosh.

Suzanne Culberg [00:48:08]:
But what am I teaching her if every time I go in and just acquiesce? It’s like we’re not learning anything here. Another example, if you don’t have a kid with anxiety is if you have a kid like, my son had this homework project. He came in at 10 o’clock at night. He goes, I’ve gotta build a diorama. I was like, cool. When’s it due? He’s like, tomorrow. Tomorrow?

Tim Newman [00:48:24]:
I’m like,

Suzanne Culberg [00:48:24]:
well, you’re gonna get 0 on that, aren’t you? Because by me building the project for him, he’s not gonna learn anything. So his next project was, the Paris Olympics, and he gave it to me this day he got it. We had 3 weeks to do it. We did it together. As in, I’ve never been the parent who does it for them. And we built this PowerPoint presentation. Anyway, on the day they delivered it, I said, how’d you go? And he got his mark. He said, do you know how many other kids when they hit play on a pa presentation go, oh, I don’t know what my mom meant by this? Like, it was so obvious the kid the parent had done it for them.

Tim Newman [00:48:56]:
Right.

Suzanne Culberg [00:48:56]:
I was like, you’re not learning shit if I do your work for you. So, like, as he was writing this, I was looking at some of the slides, and there was so much glitter and brightness. I was just cringing. I was like, I’m dying. And so I’m like, yeah, but I’m not 9 years old. So but they’ve gotta learn themselves. And and and what are you available for, and they’re not gonna know that if you don’t communicate it.

Tim Newman [00:49:18]:
Right. Right. And then they build then they build those habits. And then, you know, when they’re 25, 30, 40, 50, whatever, they’re still doing the the same things and maybe going through some of the the same struggles that that that we had to. And if we can stop them at you know, when they’re young, they’re not gonna have to deal with with with some of those some of those things that we that we’ve had to deal with.

Suzanne Culberg [00:49:41]:
I used to work for the government for, like, our health sector, and the number of kids young adults who come in 20, 25 who didn’t know how to fill out a form because they’ve never had to. Their parents had done it from the whole time. And I remember handing them over. I was like, I’m not doing a voice. It’s not my job. Here’s the form. And I remember this one guy that came back, and it’d be like, first name, middle name. So here, your middle name is you hit your second name.

Suzanne Culberg [00:50:05]:
So he’d put, Chris Christopher. And I was like, is your name Chris Christopher? And he’s like, no. My name is Christopher, and Chris is my nickname. He didn’t understand. So I’m not being sarcastic. I explained it to him. But I was like, I think sometimes when we try to help, whether it be our kids or anybody, our partner, our friends, to the point that we actually hamstring them because they don’t know how to do it on their own, you’re not always gonna be there.

Tim Newman [00:50:31]:
Right.

Suzanne Culberg [00:50:31]:
So I wasn’t rude to him. I was like, oh, dude. Like, your second name is in, you know, what’s your middle name? Oh, so, you know, I helped him. But he had to fill the form first, and then I helped rather than me do it for it because I don’t get paid for that. Right.

Tim Newman [00:50:45]:
Well, right now, my my students don’t know the difference between noon, 12 o’clock noon, and midnight.

Suzanne Culberg [00:50:57]:
Oh, really?

Tim Newman [00:50:57]:
12 o’clock AM. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I don’t know how that’s possible, but, yeah, so when I say something’s due at noon, they’re really thinking that instead of

Suzanne Culberg [00:51:11]:
thinking it’s me not.

Tim Newman [00:51:12]:
Oh, no. No. No. Yeah. And so yeah. That that’s what that’s what we’re working with.

Suzanne Culberg [00:51:23]:
Yeah. But I think sometimes we we don’t have boundaries or we don’t communicate. I’m trying to teach my son 24 hour time because my husband’s ex military. So he’ll always be like, 1500 or o three hundred or whatever. And my kid will be like, what? No. But you gotta add 12 to it. So we’re working on that. You know? But, yeah, like midnight versus noon.

Suzanne Culberg [00:51:44]:
Yeah. You got you’re 12 hours late.

Tim Newman [00:51:46]:
Yeah. Exact exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I I mean, I couldn’t even imagine trying to teach them military time. That’s that’s that’s a whole different story.

Suzanne Culberg [00:51:58]:
Well, I do like that that you wouldn’t get confused because, you know, there’s o 300 versus 1500. Right.

Tim Newman [00:52:06]:
You know, I’d I’d be fine I would be fine with it, but they’d they’d get the calculator out and say, 3 plus 12. Yeah. Yes. I don’t know. It it they make me laugh sometimes, and and, it it is what it is. But, hopefully, hopefully, they they learn the clock. Well, we’ll we’ll figure it out. And sometimes I’m not doing that.

Tim Newman [00:52:29]:
I can’t get my my my patience sometimes with that is is not very much. I just can’t.

Suzanne Culberg [00:52:36]:
I’ve never had patience with time. Like, I’ve always been punctual right on time, and my sister is not. Like, she’ll say, oh, see you at 12 ish. And to her, 12 ish can be anytime from 12 to, like, half past 1. No. And I’m like, no. No. You’ll see me at 12.

Suzanne Culberg [00:52:50]:
Oh, 12 ish. No. No. No. 12.

Tim Newman [00:52:53]:
Exactly. Ex I I’m I’m I’m the same way. It’s I mean, I’ve got too many other things to do to worry about, you know, 12 ish. You know? So, you know, especially, you know, doing these types of things, you know, I’ve got I tried to set my wife up with a with a calendar like like how we which is, you know, what we use with this. And she said, well, which calendar should I use to to attach it to us? Well, you need to have you should only have one. You just whatever whatever. Show one calendar. That way you’re not confusing.

Tim Newman [00:53:25]:
You’re not you’re not double booking anything. Every everything comes from one one place. And she said, well, how do you do it? And and I showed her, and she said, don’t you ever get confused? I said, the only time I ever get confused is if I forget to put something in my calendar.

Suzanne Culberg [00:53:41]:
Yeah. That’s it.

Tim Newman [00:53:42]:
That’s it.

Suzanne Culberg [00:53:43]:
And I live my life by my Google Calendar. And for my business, I use Acuity, which is equivalent to Calendly.

Tim Newman [00:53:49]:
Mhmm.

Suzanne Culberg [00:53:49]:
And then last week, for whatever reason, they stopped syncing. So acuity didn’t sync with Google Calendar, so I end up with double bookings. And I was like, how did this fall? I fixed it, but I was like, oh my gosh. This is so frustrating because they automatically book each other out. So some people who still use the pen and paper calendar, like, you do you. No. But I’m like

Tim Newman [00:54:05]:
No. I I

Suzanne Culberg [00:54:06]:
I can’t imagine the the time to erase and move and rewrite. Google Calendar, you just copy paste or cut. It’s

Tim Newman [00:54:12]:
just Exact.

Suzanne Culberg [00:54:13]:
Every Tuesday, I I just I love it. I’m like, I don’t understand pen and paper calendars in this day and age. No. And, also, it auto converts. If I send you a invite, Tim, for you know, this time is 9 AM Australian time, it will show up on your calendar and whatever your time zone is. We don’t have to be like, okay. You’re in Easton or whatever it is.

Tim Newman [00:54:34]:
Exactly. Well so, you know, the other, you know, the other podcast I do, you know, for for golf, my I told you my partner’s in Texas. So he’s sometimes, he’s 2 hours behind me. Sometimes, he’s 3 hours behind me. So when when we try to

Suzanne Culberg [00:54:48]:
on daylight savings or not. Of course. Yeah.

Tim Newman [00:54:50]:
So, I mean, depending on on and depending on who we’re interviewing, I mean, it it does become mental gymnastics of when all 3 of all 3 of us or 4 of us are free at the same time trying to to schedule interviews. That that’s that sometimes that that is tough, and there’s no way I could do it if it was all on paper.

Suzanne Culberg [00:55:11]:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, that’s not that’s not the boundary and people pleasing and whatever communication thing. So I send people my calendar. That’s how I want them to book. When they write back and go, oh, you know, no. No. No.

Suzanne Culberg [00:55:22]:
I don’t wanna do a back and forward. Because, also, too, say I send you an email, Tim, and propose this time, and you take 3 days to get back to me, that time could already been gone. Whereas if you click the link, it will only show you what’s available. So

Tim Newman [00:55:34]:
Exactly.

Suzanne Culberg [00:55:34]:
It’s like, yeah, I don’t do this. This is this is what it is.

Tim Newman [00:55:38]:
So so that that that kind of brings me to something I do wanna ask you about. What what’s your thought on DMs? I heard I heard

Suzanne Culberg [00:55:45]:
I don’t do DMs at all.

Tim Newman [00:55:46]:
At all.

Suzanne Culberg [00:55:47]:
I don’t do any I I think DMs, unsolicited DMs, are the dick pics of the social media world.

Tim Newman [00:55:53]:
I love it.

Suzanne Culberg [00:55:54]:
Like, I just can’t stand it. Because I’ve never had a DM that’s actually been legit. Usually, it’s someone trying to sell me YouTube services or editing services or something I don’t want anyway. Some mass chain letter thing that if I don’t respond, I’m gonna end up, I don’t know, desolate on an island or something. Or or just someone’s yeah. It’s just it’s just fishing. And it clearly says if you go to so I have this year in 2024, I pretty much stopped using social media. I didn’t delete it because I figure when you hear someone’s name, you tend to either look for their website or their social.

Suzanne Culberg [00:56:27]:
So I want people to know I exist as a business.

Tim Newman [00:56:30]:
Right.

Suzanne Culberg [00:56:30]:
But if you go to my Instagram, for example, I have what’s called a static nine grid, means it doesn’t move. And it’s a series of posts which direct you to my podcast, my YouTube, or my website because that’s the places that I hang out. And on my website, it directs you to even though it says don’t click. There is contact in the footer. But, like, I’m clear. I respond to email. Like, you know, I think the thing when people pleasing or whatever, you’re like, I’m missing out on these opportunities. If somebody doesn’t wanna take 5 minutes to contact me in the way that I want to be contacted like, on my personal Facebook page, it says as a sentence, I’ll start let’s paraphrase it.

Suzanne Culberg [00:57:01]:
It basically says, this is my personal profile. If you wanna contact me about business, go here, and it directs them to the contact page direct, not the don’t don’t click page. The number of people who comment on that very post because it’s pinned and say, check your others folder, I’m like, I will not. I’ve told you how to contact me, and you’ve insisted on DMing me. No.

Tim Newman [00:57:25]:
Exactly. And and how good is that relationship gonna be if you can’t follow simple directions? I mean, that’s or or, you know, just because that to me, that’s that is really just simple following following instructions, following directions. And if you wanna have a if you wanna have a business relationship, you know, there’s certain things that you need to to trust that they’re gonna be able to do. Right? That’s just

Suzanne Culberg [00:57:47]:
And there’s there’s one lady that I met in a networking, like, a a Zoom meeting, And I went to the thing, and she said she likes to be contacted by Instagram. I thought because I don’t do DMs, but that’s how she likes to be contacted. So, anyway, I couldn’t I stuffed it. It was it was whatever. And I saw her, and she’s like, for you, you can email me. Like but it was funny. But I did try to honor the thing, but I was like, where did it go? Because on my on my business Facebook page, you can’t DM me. I’ve deleted it.

Suzanne Culberg [00:58:16]:
You can actually remove the option. And on Instagram, I’ve deleted it for people who don’t follow me. Like, there is a back end way. You can’t get rid of it entirely. So I’m trying to tell to to honor her way of being, and I’m a bit confused. And she’s like, just email me. It was funny.

Tim Newman [00:58:33]:
That’s awesome. That’s awesome. Oh, man. So when when you’re when you’re dealing with figuring out why people have a problem saying no, is is there a gender do you think there’s a gender specific reason? Are are females more likely to to not say no for, let’s just say, for for feelings as opposed to males who may not wanna say no because if they don’t do it, it won’t be done done properly. You you know, for for me a lot at least for me a lot of times, from a business perspective, I won’t say no because I I know if I do it, it’ll be done right. It’ll be done the way I want it done. Does that does that make sense?

Suzanne Culberg [00:59:21]:
Yeah. It makes total sense. I’ve never made that connection before, but that’s such a good point. I think, you know, in general and, obviously, these are generalizations. Not everybody falls in every category. Like, not every kid who’s a cheerleader also plays football. So, you know, usually, they tend to do one or the other. One or the other.

Suzanne Culberg [00:59:35]:
Right? You know? So in general, for for for women, it’s the emotion thing. Like, I don’t wanna upset them. I don’t wanna disappoint them. I can’t handle having somebody be mad at me. But for men, as you said, like, my I know my husband will be like, it’s just easier if I just do it myself. It’s like it’s like you hired this person to help you, and then you’re just doing it yourself. Like, this is you know? Or, or they won’t do it right. And, like, if I if I show them once and that’s forevermore, and they if they don’t get it, they don’t respect me, or maybe they didn’t understand, or maybe what you said when you explained it this time, they heard in a different way.

Suzanne Culberg [01:00:15]:
Like, your 12 o’clock example, it’s due by 12 noon. If you didn’t know noon meant 12 PM, and you just said 12 noon, and you thought it was AM, and they keep submitting it. Like, you might be like, they just don’t respect me or whatever. It’s like, no. They literally don’t get it.

Tim Newman [01:00:29]:
Right. Right. Exactly. Exactly. And, yeah, I I just I just wonder, you know, if if as we as we try to transition out of of being that person and and set setting those boundaries, how much more difficult it is to to let go of whatever that whatever that reasoning is. You know, letting go of it’s okay. Let somebody else do it and let them do it their own way and accepting the result of that as and how much easier is it is it or how hard is it to, say no and not worrying about hurting their feelings or or me having the perception of hurting their feelings?

Suzanne Culberg [01:01:12]:
For the feelings one, I could tackle that easier. I’ll get to the other one. But a a a frame that has really helped me, I got this from Henry Cloud. He talks about hurt versus harm. So if I say no, their feelings may be hurt, but that is true. That’s not on me. I don’t get to manage other people’s feelings. But have I harmed them? It’s like, no.

Suzanne Culberg [01:01:34]:
I haven’t. So I can feel much better in myself that I haven’t harmed anyone, like, by not going to their Tupperware party or by not sitting through hours of cheer or by not building a diorama at 10 PM at night. Like, I haven’t harmed them. They’re hurt because they’re left high and dry and stuck, and they might get a crappy grade. But that hurt feelings is hopefully the impetus for them to do something differently in future as opposed to just, oh, mom will fix or Suz will fix or she’s my little bitch. You know? So that helps me a lot. I am no doubt that I hurt people’s feelings just by being me, but I feel so much better inside myself than trying to do things or remember which story I’ve told or which excuse I’ve given or which version of me. So I I think, you know, I hurt this time.

Suzanne Culberg [01:02:19]:
This might hurt, but I’m not responsible for other people’s feelings. Yeah. That’s right. Another thing I say to myself is offense can only be taken, never given. Like, I wasn’t intending to offend them with my no. If they made the assumption that I do something that I haven’t, that’s not on me. If if I if I’ve changed my mind, that’s different. Like, if you’re like, let’s go hiking.

Suzanne Culberg [01:02:38]:
I’m like, sure. I’ll see you at 7. And then at 6:59, I’m like, oh, Tim, I’m not coming. Like, with one minute’s notice?

Tim Newman [01:02:43]:
Dude, you would

Suzanne Culberg [01:02:44]:
have known at least an hour ago, especially if you had to drive there. Right. Like, if you were pissed, I’d understand that. But if I woke up that morning legitimately feeling unwell or it depends on the thing. So I’m very introverted, and my friends all know that. So if we’re if we’ve got plans, and I make plans when I’m in extroverted mood and then I’ve had drama, I might say, I’m not coming tonight. I’m having introvert day with hours of notice. So and we haven’t prepaid or something like that as opposed to, say, you were getting married or having, like, my son’s assembly tomorrow, it doesn’t care how introverted I’m feeling.

Suzanne Culberg [01:03:15]:
I’ll turn up because it’s something important to him. But, like, if you have these things with your friends that, like, today like, my friends always know if they’ve got to vent, They have to message me first. Have you got spoons? That’s our talk. Have you got capacity to listen to me today? Sometimes it’ll be no. Not today. Try me tomorrow because we end up we’re at not at our best, and then we’re listening to someone else not at their best. And then it’s like the blind leading the blind, or it’s like, you know, you’re starting a war within yourself to for Kate someone else when you have your own shit going on. So hurt versus harm helps with that.

Suzanne Culberg [01:03:47]:
But in terms of, like, not doing it right, I think sometimes it’s agree to disagree and decide which tasks you outsource. Because, like, is the way this is done like, I’ve got the world’s dumbest example, but sometimes these work best. My husband’s been in the military, so he has a particular way that he folds socks.

Tim Newman [01:04:07]:
Oh, absolutely.

Suzanne Culberg [01:04:08]:
Like that way because I feel my socks are stretched out too much, and they fall at the ankle. I like my socks done the other way. And we would argue literally for years about sock folding. So at the end of the day, I was like, I will fold everyone else’s house and socks the way I fold mine, and I’ll leave yours there in a pile clean, and you can fold your own damn socks. So if it’s that important to you, then maybe it’s something you do yourself. Yeah. But other things, is it that big of a deal? No. Does he mind now how I don’t iron the sheets? Like, he used to literally iron our sheets, and he’s like, you know, I could let that one go.

Suzanne Culberg [01:04:40]:
So you you home?

Tim Newman [01:04:43]:
I I I live that. I I and I I I’m I’m also a prime military. So, yes, there’s there is a way to fold the socks. There’s a way to fold everything, and it better be folded that way because that’s the only way it’s gonna fit into the drawers. If you fold it any other way, you’ve got to argument.

Suzanne Culberg [01:05:00]:
Yes. Yes. We had this thing. And I’m like, if it’s this important to you to do it this way, then this task is yours. Yep. You know who? And I think sometimes it’s just letting it go because, also, it could be open to the other person’s suggestion may be better. Like, when we first moved to this house

Tim Newman [01:05:14]:
cats. No.

Suzanne Culberg [01:05:15]:
We didn’t know this suburb. And we used to walk to school because we only have the 1 car, so walk the kids to school. And we keep seeing kids in the uniform here near our house, but then when we got to school grounds, they were already there. So how are those kids getting there before we do? Like, we’re not slow walkers. They’re not overtaking us. Then we’re like, there must be another route. So then one day we, not creepily, followed the kids, and there was, like, this little laneway that we knew nothing about because it’s not obvious, and it’s safe. Don’t worry.

Suzanne Culberg [01:05:40]:
It wasn’t sketchy. But it was like, oh, so sometimes sometimes someone’s way especially in business, if you’re hiring a VA to edit your videos and, you know, you like it but then again, if you’re hiring them, you could tell them the way that you like it. But also to how long does it take them to do the task? If I hire someone to do something for me and it doesn’t take them less time than it does me, I find that bizarre. Like, it’s just a personal thing.

Tim Newman [01:06:04]:
Right. But but but, yeah, you’re right. I mean, that’s that’s but you have to be you also have to be open to having things done better than you would ever do it, which to me is I’m working on that. I’m much better now than I’ve been. You know? But but that also happens when, you know, at times, you have so much to do. You you can’t do everything well. You have to learn to to be able to to say no and give things up and let other people take them. And that’s, you know, it it I guess it’s just a learning process, for me anyway.

Tim Newman [01:06:44]:
It’s, you know, starting this starting this business, I was I’m I’m still working full time in my college teaching job. I was doing another side job that I’ve been doing for years I love doing, and I started this. And as I’m really getting in was really getting into doing it, my wife said, you know, you have to you’re gonna hire somebody to do to do something or you’re gonna have to give something else up because you’re not getting everything done. I said, I know, but I’ve got I have I I have to be the one that does this. She said, no. You don’t have to be the one that that does it. And, you know, it kinda smacked me in the face about May or June, and I’m glad that it did because that’s kinda what woke me up. And I saw some other options to to get some things done, and it’s actually being done way better, way quicker, way cheaper than I was doing.

Suzanne Culberg [01:07:34]:
I think that’s such a great learning curve for everyone because there’s that Stephen Covey or whoever it was, like, you know, fit your big rocks first. But sometimes people just have way too many big rocks. Like, I hope that the big rocks in the container, but they’re still coming out the top. And it’s like overcommitting yourself and going, which ones of these really need to be done at all? And which one of these really need to be done by me? Like, me giving up DMs was challenging in the beginning because I the story I told myself, I’d miss out on business or what if people couldn’t contact me. And I was like, is that really true, or am I missing out on a whole bunch of spammers and people who don’t respect me enough to spend 5 seconds working out the way that I clearly laid out how to contact me?

Tim Newman [01:08:12]:
Exactly. Exactly. Is is there anything else that we haven’t talked about that, you know, listeners should know about?

Suzanne Culberg [01:08:21]:
I I guess the biggest thing is sometimes it can be easy to listen to a conversation of someone who’s I hesitate to use the word mastered, but mastered the skill that you want And then think, like, I’m never gonna get there. Or you try something once or twice, and it doesn’t work out, and you dismiss it. Like, a lot of my audience are moms and some dads, mostly moms in my audience, for young children. And they’re like, I could never not have my kids interrupt while I’m working, or I could never, you know, have my kids not do their homework for them or whatever. And it’s like, well, of course, you’re gonna keep showing evidence for that. So the first few times that you say like, I remember the first time I said to my children, don’t interrupt me unless it’s important. Like, while I’m working, and they were young. And I thought, like, you know, maybe I can do some small things.

Suzanne Culberg [01:09:07]:
Like, yeah. Yeah, mommy. Okay. Got it. The next thing, it was not even 5 minutes later, Tim. My daughter comes barreling in. And I’m like, is it important? She’s like, yeah. I’m like, what is it? I could fit 27 blueberries in my mouth.

Suzanne Culberg [01:09:18]:
So then we had to have a discussion about what important actually means. So now it’s like bone or blood. Like, if that’s why when my son came in that time, and he said, daddy needs you. I thought, oh my god. He’s at the hospital. Like, you know Right. Because they know now, but that it takes time. It’s like if we were going to the gym and you’ve never lifted weights, and you’re seeing the dude’s bicep curl in, like, 20, 50, like, a big pound dumbbells, and you’re trying to lift the 2 pounds off, and it’s like, oh, I’m sweating already.

Suzanne Culberg [01:09:45]:
You’re not gonna you know, in your head, you’re not gonna be able to do that tomorrow. Like, you understand that because you’re not there yet. But when it comes to things like boundaries, things that aren’t physical like that, we think, oh, I should be able to just do it. I should be able to tell them once and they should get it. If you’ve spent years or hesitate to say decades being that little bitch, and you suddenly aren’t gonna be that anymore, don’t pendulum swing to that because that’s how you end up with, like, no friends. Right. Because it’s so it’s like, it’s gonna be a process. It’s gonna suck the first few dozen times.

Suzanne Culberg [01:10:16]:
You’re gonna have to be like and the story you’re gonna build in your head about what they’re gonna say, most of the time, for most people, they’re like, of course. And you’re just like, they’re the way they take your boundary, you’re like, oh my gosh. We should’ve done this years ago.

Tim Newman [01:10:29]:
Exact exactly.

Suzanne Culberg [01:10:30]:
And then we’ll be the 1 or 2, like that woman who was like, oh, it’s just a joke, who you know it’s not just a joke. Right. And then you have to question, is that the kind of relationship I wanna continue to foster? And sometimes it’s hard, and you will feel like you’re a little bit alone for a while. But when you cut the cut the cords, that sounds very woo, but anyway, then you have space for people coming who are aligned. And then and then you can foster these deeper connections.

Tim Newman [01:10:53]:
Exactly. So where can people find you to work with you and and, hit the do not click button?

Suzanne Culberg [01:11:03]:
My website is the best place to find me, suzanne kolberg.com. It does start with start here, like, in the top. But as Tim said, some people are more interested in the don’t click. But on my website, I literally have what I call the everything page, which has everything that I do listed out from free to paid, how much it is if it’s paid, little more information. It’s kinda like the hub or the directory. I have all sorts of things. I have a free podcast. I have a paid podcast.

Suzanne Culberg [01:11:30]:
I have home study programs. I have 1 on 1 coaching. Like, you name it, I’ve got it. And if you’re not sure or you wanna chat to me, go to the don’t click or Suzanne Kroglberg dot com forward slash contact. Go there anyway and send me a message. You’ll know straight away. I talk about filtering. Chances are you’ll pick the body option.

Suzanne Culberg [01:11:47]:
If you if you know, you know when you see it, because that’s 90% of the people who send me a message. And, yeah, I will write back. I love having a chat to people about, you know, what you found valuable from this episode or any further questions that you have.

Tim Newman [01:12:00]:
Thank thank you so much. I I I love that you are so unapologetically you. It’s refreshing. I think I wish there there were more people in the world like that. I think we would be much better off. So thank you so much for for joining us and taking some time with us today.

Suzanne Culberg [01:12:15]:
Thank you so much for having me, team.

Tim Newman [01:12:18]:
Be sure to visit the speaking with confidence podcast.com. Oh my gosh. I can’t even read. Yeah. That’s being cut. Because if I can’t say my own website right, it’s a problem. Maybe I won’t cut it. Who knows? Be be sure to visit speaking with confidence podcast.com to join our growing community and register for the Formula for Public Speaking course.

Tim Newman [01:12:40]:
Always remember, your voice has the power to change the world. We’ll talk to you next time. Take care. I hope you enjoyed the latest episode of Speaking with Confluence. Give us a review to tell everyone why you love the podcast. You can also download, like, and share the podcast with friends. Be sure to visit only for public speaking dot com and sign up for the formula for public speaking course. It’s a step by step system to help you become the confident and powerful speaker you’ve always wanted to be.

Tim Newman [01:13:15]:
We’ll see you next time. Take care.